Gustav's Discovery

[Jean]

Originally Posted by drdavid

Alan, thank you for the clarification
This leads me to ask if I should consider the ron dha as containing the ri pandan and what ever name we give to the hook at the other end or just the curving edges (as in the script used to write aum) or possibly just the space with the thingil in the middle. Or all of the above.
cheers
DrDavid

Good question David, what a confusion! And I would add:
. What is the difference between the ron dha nunut and ron dha besides their different location? (wadidang and ganja).
. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?
. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean:-
What is the difference between the ron dha nunut and ron dha besides their different location? (wadidang and ganja).

nunut means to follow along, the ron dha in the wadidang"follows along" with the other ron dha in the gonjo, so this wadidang ron dha is the ron dha nunut


. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?

according to what I have been taught this is a ri pandan, and it forms part of the ron dha


. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.

sorry Jean, not according to the Surakarta Pakem, here it is called a ri pandan

I'm in the process right now of putting up some posts that I do not expect will lessen this confusion, but will at least help you to understand what you are facing when you try to understand the keris from a Javanese perspective.

[A. G. Maisey]

Here are some images that might help to demonstrate the bog that we try to wade through when we begin to use Javanese and Indonesian books as reliable sources of information.
The important thing to remember is this:- keris knowledge is in fact knowledge of keris belief.

The "facts" of anything are only facts for the people who accept any particular source of knowledge, be it a text, or a person, as a reliable source.

There is no "standard".

Books and other printed or written sources can be useful to somebody who already has a foundation gained from personal, face to face instruction by an acknowledged authority, but without this foundation it becomes more than a little bit difficult to know if something can be accepted or not, and if it is accepted, that acceptance depends upon the belief in the person who provided the foundation.

With things Javanese and Indonesian, it is probably not the wisest position to take to accept anything as the ultimate truth.


I've posted a lot of images here, the numbers indicate the sources:-

1-- Koesni, 'Pakem Pengetahuan Tentang Keris'
2-- Ki Darmosoegito, 'Bab Dhuwung'
3-- Rt. Waluyodipuro, 'Dhuwung'
4-- S.Lumintu, 'Ilmu Keris'
5-- B. Harsrinuksmo, 'Ensiklopedi Keris'
6-- as for 5
7--as for 5
8-- B. Harsrinuksmo, 'Dapur Keris'
9-- as for 8
10-- as for 8
11-- as for 8


My personal position is that my "keris knowledge" in the sense of present day Central Javanese "knowledge" is based upon what I have personally gained from the people I know and have known in Central Jawa. I do not take much notice of what is printed in books about keris. I have seen very well known and respected authors come to my own teachers seeking information, I have seen and heard what they were given, I have heard my teachers' remarks when they left, I have seen what these respected authors did to the information they were given.

I am not recommending that any of the information in the accompanying images be regarded as "correct", whatever that may mean, my purpose in providing these images is try to provide some sort of understanding of exactly what Javanese "knowledge" of keris is like.

The text is in Javanese and Indonesian, if you can't work out what it means, ask me. I don't feel inclined to translate everything on all pages.

What I've posted is just a sample. I've got a lot, I mean a real lot of books, manuscripts, articles & etc & etc & etc about this sort of stuff, several big bookcases, more than one shoulder high filing cabinet. The more you read the more confused and contradictory it becomes.

[A. G. Maisey]

In respect of the ri pandan and the thingil.

Before you can understand what anybody is saying, you need to understand the language they are using.

Here the language is Javanese.

Ri pandan means "pandan thorn", some pandan plants have thorns along the sides of the leaves, those thorns are hooked, so if you are told that something is like a pandan thorn, you need to look for a hooked thorn.

In the context of a keris, that hooked thorn can either stand alone, or it can be a part of the ron dha, but wherever it is, it is thorn-like and it is hooked.

"Thingil" means "something small that stands above its surroundings".

In the context of the keris, this can be something that is an isolated element, or it can be the small central spike in the cup of the ron dha. Both uses are correct, because in both cases we are talking about something small that projects above the surroundings.

Once you have even a basic understanding of Javanese it is really not so difficult to understand what is being said insofar as keris terminology is concerned.

I think I might have answered your query David?

[kai]

Hello Alan,

. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?

according to what I have been taught this is a ri pandan, and it forms part of the ron dha

It also was my understanding that the uppermost hook of the ron dha nunut is called ri pandan and apparently forms an integral part. However, in strict sense it does not "participate" in building the ron dha nunut while the second ri pandan forms the right hand side of ron dha nunut (as well as in the ron dha following on the gonjo).

At least from a pattern recognition approach it does make sense to call the right hand element of the ron dha motif ri pandan.

Thingil certainly suits the middle "thorn" of the ron dha motif.

Thus, the question remains what do we call the left hand structure of the ron dha motif? With its more erect and often slender structure without much curvature and those notches on its top, it seems to deserve a name of its own! Early versions seem to exhibit a bit more curvature but it seems like a stretch to me to also call this element ri pandan, too...

. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.

sorry Jean, not according to the Surakarta Pakem, here it is called a ri pandan

I also just stumbled over this paradox and am glad there is another approach. While this isolated element certainly protrudes from the general outline of the blade/gonjo, it certainly has the shape of a ri pandan!

I'm in the process right now of putting up some posts that I do not expect will lessen this confusion, but will at least help you to understand what you are facing when you try to understand the keris from a Javanese perspective.

Great, I'm looking forward to more insights!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Here's a good little extra one for you, this is also from Waluyodipuro, 'Dhuwung'. This is an old text published 1959.

Compare with previous.

tengil --- this means 'a bulge or a swelling', I cannot remember hearing it used as a keris term, except to describe an obvious bulge, usually one that looks a bit out of place, but here it seems as if Waluyodipuro knew it as a keris term

lanjarngirim --- I do not know if this is a word or a description, I don't know it as a keris term, but I understand the sense in Javanese as "something extra that has been sent", in Indonesian, it might be "something long and tapering that has been sent". Frankly, to me, it just doesn't make sense. I just ran it past two native speakers of Javanese,both from Solo, both asked me to put it in a sentence, out of context, even as a descriptor, they had no idea what it meant.

Fun, isn't it?

EDIT

OK, it took a bit of effort, but I found some handwritten Javanese notes that translate as:-

"The thingil or lanjarngirim is placed below the eri-pandan'

So Waluyodipuro understood 'lanjarngirim' as an alternate name for 'thingil', and 'tengil' is simply dialect for 'thingil'.

Really great fun working with Javanese.

Wonderland language.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, there might well be a distinct name for the element that begins a ron dha, reading from the left, but I do not know it, and in my experience this break down of terminology is almost never used , mostly we just refer to the ron dha as an integral unit.

Frankly I see all this name business as total, absolute useless info, its not knowledge, it doesn't demonstrate one single thing except that some person, or group of people have stuck a name on something.

I did not put in a couple of hours finding, preparing and posting those images to provide information in respect of names, I did it because I wanted people to see how bl**dy pointless this stupid name game is.

The names used for various things, in this case keris elements, or really, composition of a keris element in this case, vary from place to place, time to time, person to person, group to group. The same people at different times will use the same word to refer to different features. The whole exercise of trying to get an encyclopedic knowledge of ever changing names is pointless.

If we speak Javanese and use these words face to face as descriptors of something, the names can make sense, but used as solid, written in stone names that are universally understandable in text forever, the whole thing is just a waste of time. Forget the names, concentrate on the meaning of the symbol, the names mean nothing, they are all euphemisms given at the lowest level of knowledge in any case.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kai, there might well be a distinct name for the element that begins a ron dha, reading from the left, but I do not know it, and in my experience this break down of terminology is almost never used , mostly we just refer to the ron dha as an integral unit.

Frankly I see all this name business as total, absolute useless info, its not knowledge, it doesn't demonstrate one single thing except that some person, or group of people have stuck a name on something.

I did not put in a couple of hours finding, preparing and posting those images to provide information in respect of names, I did it because I wanted people to see how bl**dy pointless this stupid name game is.

The names used for various things, in this case keris elements, or really, composition of a keris element in this case, vary from place to place, time to time, person to person, group to group. The same people at different times will use the same word to refer to different features. The whole exercise of trying to get an encyclopedic knowledge of ever changing names is pointless.

If we speak Javanese and use these words face to face as descriptors of something, the names can make sense, but used as solid, written in stone names that are universally understandable in text forever, the whole thing is just a waste of time. Forget the names, concentrate on the meaning of the symbol, the names mean nothing, they are all euphemisms given at the lowest level of knowledge in any case.

Thank you Alan and I agree with your conclusion!

[drdavid]

Thanks Alan
I certainly understand your comments on the 'name game'. The reason I asked what actually composes the ron dha was that if it were the space as opposed to the surrounds, that would conceptually match some of the meanings given to OM (or AUM), such as 'the beginning of everything'
cheers
DrDavid