Gustav's Discovery

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by drdavid

For example in this discussion ri pandan is a new term to me and it is not on the illustration http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html that I use most frequently
thanks
Dr D

Sorry DrD, I am no expert, but ri pandan is the notch in the middle of the ron dha. In some cases, this notch becomes a bump. I have marked the ri pandan on Alm. Empu Suparman's diagram from Alan below.

Originally Posted by kai

However, its contours are usually different from the real ron dha

Hi Kai, in my eyes, I think this Dha actually resembles Pajajaran Ron Dha. The image below.

Originally Posted by kai

After selecting the first pic, hit upload. Then the next, etc.

Thanks Kai, I'll try that next time.

[drdavid]

Alan, Rasdan
thanks for your input, however you don't seem to agree which bit is the ri pandan
cheers
DrD

[rasdan]

Hi DrD, Alan,

It seems that I made a mistake here. I was using the diagram from Keris Jawa book below. Probably the label in that book was switched between the thingil and Ri pandan. I will address the notch/bump in the middle of the dha as thingil from now on. Sorry for the mistake.

I'll get back to this in a few days.

Ok Alan.

Edit:
Just saw Alan had attached the same image after I posted this, but I think I'll just leave the image here for reference of my post.

[rasdan]

Just to add a bit. If we look closely, at the keris diagram in Keris Jawa book, we can see a small Dha formation on top of the thingil (term used in that book) as I mentioned in my first post above.

This reminds me of the greneng for a Tilam Sari keris which probably includes a dha formation on the thingil followed with a wide and long dha. Image below.

[A. G. Maisey]

We crossed posts David.

My understanding is in accordance with what I was taught by Empu Suparman and agreed by Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, and understood by several of the Anak-Anak ASKI, it is also in agreement with descriptions of keris elements given in individual descriptions in the Surakarta Pakem.


My understanding is that the ri pandan is the substantial hooked part of the rondha, this is also the ri pandan when it appears as a single isolated element. The thingil is the small raised peak that is seen in the centre of the rondha.

The meaning of 'ri pandan' is "pandan thorn", the pandan is a plant that has thorns on the leaves of some varieties, those thorns frequently have a small hook. There are many varieties of pandan, the one that is used as a flavouring in food does not normally have hooks.

The meaning of "thingil" is "a small thing that stands above its surroundings". Actually, "thingil" is normally used in the form "thingil-thingil".

I believe my understanding is correct, as I have sometimes said:- in respect of keris books, especially Javanese keris books, people who write books are very good at writing books -----

[drdavid]

Alan, thank you for the clarification
This leads me to ask if I should consider the ron dha as containing the ri pandan and what ever name we give to the hook at the other end or just the curving edges (as in the script used to write aum) or possibly just the space with the thingil in the middle. Or all of the above.
cheers
DrDavid

[Jean]

Originally Posted by drdavid

Alan, thank you for the clarification
This leads me to ask if I should consider the ron dha as containing the ri pandan and what ever name we give to the hook at the other end or just the curving edges (as in the script used to write aum) or possibly just the space with the thingil in the middle. Or all of the above.
cheers
DrDavid

Good question David, what a confusion! And I would add:
. What is the difference between the ron dha nunut and ron dha besides their different location? (wadidang and ganja).
. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?
. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean:-
What is the difference between the ron dha nunut and ron dha besides their different location? (wadidang and ganja).

nunut means to follow along, the ron dha in the wadidang"follows along" with the other ron dha in the gonjo, so this wadidang ron dha is the ron dha nunut


. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?

according to what I have been taught this is a ri pandan, and it forms part of the ron dha


. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.

sorry Jean, not according to the Surakarta Pakem, here it is called a ri pandan

I'm in the process right now of putting up some posts that I do not expect will lessen this confusion, but will at least help you to understand what you are facing when you try to understand the keris from a Javanese perspective.

[A. G. Maisey]

Here are some images that might help to demonstrate the bog that we try to wade through when we begin to use Javanese and Indonesian books as reliable sources of information.
The important thing to remember is this:- keris knowledge is in fact knowledge of keris belief.

The "facts" of anything are only facts for the people who accept any particular source of knowledge, be it a text, or a person, as a reliable source.

There is no "standard".

Books and other printed or written sources can be useful to somebody who already has a foundation gained from personal, face to face instruction by an acknowledged authority, but without this foundation it becomes more than a little bit difficult to know if something can be accepted or not, and if it is accepted, that acceptance depends upon the belief in the person who provided the foundation.

With things Javanese and Indonesian, it is probably not the wisest position to take to accept anything as the ultimate truth.


I've posted a lot of images here, the numbers indicate the sources:-

1-- Koesni, 'Pakem Pengetahuan Tentang Keris'
2-- Ki Darmosoegito, 'Bab Dhuwung'
3-- Rt. Waluyodipuro, 'Dhuwung'
4-- S.Lumintu, 'Ilmu Keris'
5-- B. Harsrinuksmo, 'Ensiklopedi Keris'
6-- as for 5
7--as for 5
8-- B. Harsrinuksmo, 'Dapur Keris'
9-- as for 8
10-- as for 8
11-- as for 8


My personal position is that my "keris knowledge" in the sense of present day Central Javanese "knowledge" is based upon what I have personally gained from the people I know and have known in Central Jawa. I do not take much notice of what is printed in books about keris. I have seen very well known and respected authors come to my own teachers seeking information, I have seen and heard what they were given, I have heard my teachers' remarks when they left, I have seen what these respected authors did to the information they were given.

I am not recommending that any of the information in the accompanying images be regarded as "correct", whatever that may mean, my purpose in providing these images is try to provide some sort of understanding of exactly what Javanese "knowledge" of keris is like.

The text is in Javanese and Indonesian, if you can't work out what it means, ask me. I don't feel inclined to translate everything on all pages.

What I've posted is just a sample. I've got a lot, I mean a real lot of books, manuscripts, articles & etc & etc & etc about this sort of stuff, several big bookcases, more than one shoulder high filing cabinet. The more you read the more confused and contradictory it becomes.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?

according to what I have been taught this is a ri pandan, and it forms part of the ron dha

It also was my understanding that the uppermost hook of the ron dha nunut is called ri pandan and apparently forms an integral part. However, in strict sense it does not "participate" in building the ron dha nunut while the second ri pandan forms the right hand side of ron dha nunut (as well as in the ron dha following on the gonjo).

At least from a pattern recognition approach it does make sense to call the right hand element of the ron dha motif ri pandan.

Thingil certainly suits the middle "thorn" of the ron dha motif.

Thus, the question remains what do we call the left hand structure of the ron dha motif? With its more erect and often slender structure without much curvature and those notches on its top, it seems to deserve a name of its own! Early versions seem to exhibit a bit more curvature but it seems like a stretch to me to also call this element ri pandan, too...

. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.

sorry Jean, not according to the Surakarta Pakem, here it is called a ri pandan

I also just stumbled over this paradox and am glad there is another approach. While this isolated element certainly protrudes from the general outline of the blade/gonjo, it certainly has the shape of a ri pandan!

I'm in the process right now of putting up some posts that I do not expect will lessen this confusion, but will at least help you to understand what you are facing when you try to understand the keris from a Javanese perspective.

Great, I'm looking forward to more insights!

Regards,
Kai