Turkish shamshir ?

Jeff D · 11th March 2006, 04:50 PM

Hi All,

This is along the lines Mark has observed. The picture is from the King Faisal Foundation book. I will leave the debate whether the classic "Bedouin" hilt style started in Hungary to another thread.

Jeff

ariel · 11th March 2006, 06:46 PM

The word for Sword is "kard" in Hungarian.
Thus, Kurda is likely to be just an Arabic rendition of it. Nothing specific.
The style of this sword , with a baldric, is S.Arabian or Egyptian. I would still suggest the Syrian/Lebanese influence. The remark that it this sword is appropriate for dancing is hardly a compliment.
In general, the book on Arabian swords whence this illustration comes is, IMHO, pretty lousy: just a bunch of pretty pictures but nothing authoritatively academic. Some non-Islamic swords found its way into it, the terminology is incomprehensible (ie different jambiya blades and handles are listed with particular names without and explanation or justification )etc.
I wish Elgood's book was more detailed as to different styles.

M.carter · 11th March 2006, 07:04 PM

Thanks alot Jeff for that pic. As you can probably see, that sword has new fittings, but seems like its got an old Hungarian blade.

I also had many other pics of Syrian saifs with hungarian blades (they seem the most common type of non-persian trade blade), but I deleted them all.

This is another one, however its a "full" antique:

Tim Simmons · 11th March 2006, 08:08 PM

I am going to chip in with this trade blade, these are all so similar it is quite fascinating. This has horn grips, they do not look like buffalo to me but I would not really know and they could come from many other animals rather than rhino. Tim

ariel · 11th March 2006, 09:22 PM

The last one is a Bedouin sword (Sinai, Negev, Transjordan).
They used any blade they could put their hands on...
I would be careful attributing any blade to Hungary without unequivocal evidence: inscriptions.

Andy Davis · 11th March 2006, 11:10 PM

Seems an awful lot of speculation here. When was Hungary trading with Syria? This sort of thing can happen on an individual basis but on the scale that is being suggested would seem to indicate some major trade route or agrement, which must have a historical record.

Jeff D · 12th March 2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Davis

Seems an awful lot of speculation here. When was Hungary trading with Syria? This sort of thing can happen on an individual basis but on the scale that is being suggested would seem to indicate some major trade route or agrement, which must have a historical record.

Hi Andy,

I am not sure why you think this is largely speculation? Burton and Elgood confirm Mark's observations of these 19th c. Hungarian blades. I think it is highly likely he is correct. Other possibilities for your blade are Solingen or Caucasian, impossible for me to tell with out marks.

Jeff

M.carter · 12th March 2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Davis

Seems an awful lot of speculation here. When was Hungary trading with Syria? This sort of thing can happen on an individual basis but on the scale that is being suggested would seem to indicate some major trade route or agrement, which must have a historical record.

Dont forget that Syria at that time was part of the Ottoman empire, which I think (correct me if im wrong) did trade with Hungary, so Hungarian blades reaching Damascus wasnt a hard job at all.

11th March 2006, 04:50 PM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, This is along the lines Mark has observed. The picture is from the King Faisal Foundation book. I will leave the debate whether the classic "Bedouin" hilt style started in Hungary to another thread. Jeff Attached Images

11th March 2006, 07:04 PM	#3
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Thanks alot Jeff for that pic. As you can probably see, that sword has new fittings, but seems like its got an old Hungarian blade. I also had many other pics of Syrian saifs with hungarian blades (they seem the most common type of non-persian trade blade), but I deleted them all. This is another one, however its a "full" antique: Attached Images Last edited by M.carter; 12th March 2006 at 08:46 AM.

11th March 2006, 08:08 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	I am going to chip in with this trade blade, these are all so similar it is quite fascinating. This has horn grips, they do not look like buffalo to me but I would not really know and they could come from many other animals rather than rhino. Tim Attached Images

11th March 2006, 06:46 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The word for Sword is "kard" in Hungarian. Thus, Kurda is likely to be just an Arabic rendition of it. Nothing specific. The style of this sword , with a baldric, is S.Arabian or Egyptian. I would still suggest the Syrian/Lebanese influence. The remark that it this sword is appropriate for dancing is hardly a compliment. In general, the book on Arabian swords whence this illustration comes is, IMHO, pretty lousy: just a bunch of pretty pictures but nothing authoritatively academic. Some non-Islamic swords found its way into it, the terminology is incomprehensible (ie different jambiya blades and handles are listed with particular names without and explanation or justification )etc. I wish Elgood's book was more detailed as to different styles.

11th March 2006, 09:22 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The last one is a Bedouin sword (Sinai, Negev, Transjordan). They used any blade they could put their hands on... I would be careful attributing any blade to Hungary without unequivocal evidence: inscriptions.

11th March 2006, 11:10 PM	#6
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Seems an awful lot of speculation here. When was Hungary trading with Syria? This sort of thing can happen on an individual basis but on the scale that is being suggested would seem to indicate some major trade route or agrement, which must have a historical record.