An Unsusal Curved Flyssa sword

kronckew · 23rd July 2017, 08:11 PM

...and thanks for posting my two in post 13, saves me the trouble. the curved one has a blade thickness very close to the straight one and is very sharp.

i'd say a 'flyssa' is any blade made and decorated in traditional tribal designs and materials by the ifllissen peoples of north west africa. normally charicterised by decorative brass covering on hilts and traditional geometric engravings and brass inlays on the blade, with distinctive and traditional geometric patterned carved wood scabbards.

grip, blade, scabbard. all iflissen = flyssa - whatever shape.
nimcha grip, blade, iflissen scabbard= nimcha with an iflissen scabbard
nimcha with an iflissan blade and generic european style scabbard is a nimcha with a flyssa blade.

and so on ad nauseum.

Kubur · 24th July 2017, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

.

grip, blade, scabbard. all iflissen = flyssa - whatever shape.

OK
You can add flyssa sword, flyssa dagger...

nimcha grip, blade, iflissen scabbard= nimcha with an iflissen scabbard

OK

nimcha with an iflissan blade and generic european style scabbard is a nimcha with a flyssa blade.

NO
just an abomination of mother nature!

kronckew · 24th July 2017, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

well, maybe not an abomination, just a 'marriage' not made in heaven....

i also would have set the blade further back to have the heel supported better.

and found a more appropriate scabbard. i'll be kind and assume a european captured it w/o a scabbard, liked it, and used what he had to hand. or some dealer tarted it up willy-nilly since...

ariel · 26th July 2017, 07:05 PM

Well, I would join the side of " authenticity" here.
Algeria and Morocco are next door neighbors, and no man or tribe required a visa to move a bit to the east or two bits to the west. Thus a mix of traditional examples from different localities should not be surprising and, moreover, should be almost expected.
Moreover, unlike regulation European swords that had government-dictated construction, including the smallest screw on the handle, those were hand-made, hammered out by tiny provincial or tribal workshops, without any restrictions or written orders from the " Gtreat Above". Suffice it to look at classical nimchas and flissas: I doubt we will ever be able to find two absolutely identical ones. Blacksmiths made what the buyer ordered: configuration, size, decorative elements etc.

My 5 cents.

kronckew · 1st July 2023, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

...
I also would have set the blade further back to have the heel supported better....

Resurrection.

Just won this two foot Kaybele/Iflyssan sabre & scabbard.
(Billed as an 'Eastern Sword with a well carved scabbard)

This one seems to swell at the blade root entry into the guard/grip, perfect for reinforcing the area for a slashing weapon.

Jim McDougall · 1st July 2023, 05:19 PM

This was an entertaining thread, one of the countless discussions on the philosophies of edged weapon terminology and proper classification of weapon types. The only reasonable end result was 'it depends'.

It is quite clear that the hilts of these various ethnographic forms are distinctive to certain groups, ethnographically and geographically situated, and diffusion of forms have no boundaries of any kind in these respects.

The so called 'flyssa' sword of the Kabyles has always been a conundrum, and it is a relative late comer to ethnographic edged weapons, with its earliest known reference in 1820s, and which seems to have notably diminished in its most familiar form by later in 19th c . (according to LaCoste).

One of the most puzzling aspects of the flyssa in its traditional form, is how in the world it was used, as in examples with notably long blades they are terribly balanced, the handle is too small in accord, and the hand is not protected in any way. The only reference to these ever being used is a painting which I believe Ariel observed which depicted one of these in use.

As far as I have known, and have been told, these were more a traditional weapon obtained as a kind of rite of passage with young Kabyle men, and the blades had personal embellishments added to the traditional amuletic decoration. While many of these were captured by the French in their campaigns mid 19th c. they were most probably booty from homes rather than taken in any sort of combat.

It is not surprising that tribesmen in the Saharan and Maghrebi regions would lend the traditional designs and hilt styling in varying degree to swords that were indeed intended for use in more famliar manner. The range of such diffusion and degrees of variation and styling as noted, had no bounds, and these variant weapons were more pragmatically inclined to expected use.

kronckew · 5th July 2023, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

...
Just won this two foot Kaybele/Iflyssan sabre & scabbard.
(Billed as an 'Eastern Sword with a well carved scabbard')
...

It's here. 24 in. Overall, blade 18in. Razor sharp too. Blade is 5mm at the root, distal tapered to point. Chord height at centre of blade to spine is 3 cm. Weight 303g. ex scabbard, 405 with scabbard.

23rd July 2017, 08:11 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	...and thanks for posting my two in post 13, saves me the trouble. the curved one has a blade thickness very close to the straight one and is very sharp. i'd say a 'flyssa' is any blade made and decorated in traditional tribal designs and materials by the ifllissen peoples of north west africa. normally charicterised by decorative brass covering on hilts and traditional geometric engravings and brass inlays on the blade, with distinctive and traditional geometric patterned carved wood scabbards. grip, blade, scabbard. all iflissen = flyssa - whatever shape. nimcha grip, blade, iflissen scabbard= nimcha with an iflissen scabbard nimcha with an iflissan blade and generic european style scabbard is a nimcha with a flyssa blade. and so on ad nauseum. Last edited by kronckew; 23rd July 2017 at 08:26 PM.

1st July 2023, 05:19 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	This was an entertaining thread, one of the countless discussions on the philosophies of edged weapon terminology and proper classification of weapon types. The only reasonable end result was 'it depends'. It is quite clear that the hilts of these various ethnographic forms are distinctive to certain groups, ethnographically and geographically situated, and diffusion of forms have no boundaries of any kind in these respects. The so called 'flyssa' sword of the Kabyles has always been a conundrum, and it is a relative late comer to ethnographic edged weapons, with its earliest known reference in 1820s, and which seems to have notably diminished in its most familiar form by later in 19th c . (according to LaCoste). One of the most puzzling aspects of the flyssa in its traditional form, is how in the world it was used, as in examples with notably long blades they are terribly balanced, the handle is too small in accord, and the hand is not protected in any way. The only reference to these ever being used is a painting which I believe Ariel observed which depicted one of these in use. As far as I have known, and have been told, these were more a traditional weapon obtained as a kind of rite of passage with young Kabyle men, and the blades had personal embellishments added to the traditional amuletic decoration. While many of these were captured by the French in their campaigns mid 19th c. they were most probably booty from homes rather than taken in any sort of combat. It is not surprising that tribesmen in the Saharan and Maghrebi regions would lend the traditional designs and hilt styling in varying degree to swords that were indeed intended for use in more famliar manner. The range of such diffusion and degrees of variation and styling as noted, had no bounds, and these variant weapons were more pragmatically inclined to expected use. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st July 2023 at 07:03 PM.

26th July 2017, 07:05 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, I would join the side of " authenticity" here. Algeria and Morocco are next door neighbors, and no man or tribe required a visa to move a bit to the east or two bits to the west. Thus a mix of traditional examples from different localities should not be surprising and, moreover, should be almost expected. Moreover, unlike regulation European swords that had government-dictated construction, including the smallest screw on the handle, those were hand-made, hammered out by tiny provincial or tribal workshops, without any restrictions or written orders from the " Gtreat Above". Suffice it to look at classical nimchas and flissas: I doubt we will ever be able to find two absolutely identical ones. Blacksmiths made what the buyer ordered: configuration, size, decorative elements etc. My 5 cents.