Old Tajong or Coteng???

BSMStar · 10th March 2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

BSMStar's hilt is probably a modern reproduction made in Indonesia. The beak is not too correct, and the "front-view" proportions is not quite correct. The hilt was probably made based on a photo, because the proportions are more or less correct when viewed from the side, but not from the top. Plus, the motifs on the hilt looks very S. Sumatran, not N Malayan.

I believe my ignorance is so bad that I do not have to plead ignorance in this area...

It may be my understanding or my definition of "reproduction"... but it seems that this Hulu certainly was not made to "fool" anyone into thinking this is an old Tajong or Coteng. I have never seen any thing like it before or since, so I am not sure what is being reproduced (or faked). It would seem to be something that was custom made? (It is made of silver, covering over a gray-black horn material.) Do you see a lot of this exact Hulu around? Or is it something more unique?

Being modern, that's OK (although, it took a good cleaning to get all of the oxidation off, some being copper based oxides at the "wing" joints - so it has been around a little while, a few hairline cracks, dents) ... it would seem that if this is a "typical" modern reproduction, one would expect to see more of them. Or is this just a custom piece that was made awhile back, that is not a "true" Tajong or Coteng. It could not have been "cheap" to make... I have seen some real pieces of junk out there, this one fairly nice (and fairly large too).

I like VVV's Hulu too!!!

Love these bird hilts!

nechesh · 10th March 2006, 09:09 PM

I am with you on this one B, i don't think it is correct to refer to your hilt as a "reproduction", just another in the vast myiad of variations to be found in the art of the keris and keris dress. And it is a very nicely crafted hilt indeed.

BluErf · 11th March 2006, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSMStar

I believe my ignorance is so bad that I do not have to plead ignorance in this area...

It may be my understanding or my definition of "reproduction"... but it seems that this Hulu certainly was not made to "fool" anyone into thinking this is an old Tajong or Coteng. I have never seen any thing like it before or since, so I am not sure what is being reproduced (or faked). It would seem to be something that was custom made? (It is made of silver, covering over a gray-black horn material.) Do you see a lot of this exact Hulu around? Or is it something more unique?

Being modern, that's OK (although, it took a good cleaning to get all of the oxidation off, some being copper based oxides at the "wing" joints - so it has been around a little while, a few hairline cracks, dents) ... it would seem that if this is a "typical" modern reproduction, one would expect to see more of them. Or is this just a custom piece that was made awhile back, that is not a "true" Tajong or Coteng. It could not have been "cheap" to make... I have seen some real pieces of junk out there, this one fairly nice (and fairly large too).

I like VVV's Hulu too!!!

Love these bird hilts!

Well, 'reproduction' does not mean it is mass produced. It could be a custom reproduction. If one looks at the traditional forms and place of origin, this silver hilt would be an 'oddity'. True, it could be be the 'first of a new genre', but until we see this sort of hilt widely adopted, it would continue to be an 'oddity'. Its not to say that this hilt is bad quality or anything, but just to make it clear to everyone what we are looking at, especially if we are talking about the archetypal cotengs and tajongs.

BSMStar · 14th March 2006, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Well, 'reproduction' does not mean it is mass produced. It could be a custom reproduction. If one looks at the traditional forms and place of origin, this silver hilt would be an 'oddity'. True, it could be be the 'first of a new genre', but until we see this sort of hilt widely adopted, it would continue to be an 'oddity'. Its not to say that this hilt is bad quality or anything, but just to make it clear to everyone what we are looking at, especially if we are talking about the archetypal cotengs and tajongs.

Hi BluErf...

First, I want to be sure that you know that I fully appreciate and value your knowledge and opinion... and I thank you for your help!

You have keep in mind the definition I am accustom to (from collecting military awards)... is that a reproduction is a fake, something designed to look like the real thing but is not the real thing.

I believe you are saying that this is a reproduction because it is based on the shape of a classic or old Coteng or Tajong... it reproduces the style of the older designs.

For me, reproduction may be a strong word… in the sense that it would suggest that the item is an exact copy, or an attempt to make an exact copy of the item (to reproduce it). In this context, I have to agree with nechesh, it would seem that this is just another variety of a (Garuda) bird hilt that has strongly borrowed its design from the Tajong and possibility Coteng types. A custom hilt. However, there are too many differences for it to be a Coteng or a Tajong (for example, the base is all wrong… being sphere shaped and it setting on a silver ring mendak… as well as the other differences you have pointed out). When looking at the market place, usually reproductions tend to show up all over the place (in trying to make a buck, they make more than just one). But please correct me if I am wrong… there may be a “high end” market of fakes for the unsuspecting… and the poor person figured it out, and dumped this as a piece of junk.

VVV’s Hulu is a Coteng and much is known and shared about it. With the one I have, it is a challenge to find any information about it since is seems to be relatively different and unique. But that is the fun of collecting…

One person's junk is another person's treasure.

BluErf · 15th March 2006, 01:51 PM

Hi BSMStar,

Ok, I see where you are coming from. We'll call your hilt a "coteng-styled keris hilt" in the future then.

At any rate, it certainly is not junk. The maker had a good measure of ability to make something 3 dimensional like this and cover it in repoussed motifs which are neat and consistent.

The world of keris is always evolving, even now. When we look at the keris hilts from the different regions, sometimes we can see that they obviously came from the same older form. Some hilts look like a distorted form of another (take the central Javanese 7-planar hilts and the variants from east Java). And we have seen how the tajong resembles the coteng, which also resembles the Tegal hilt, which in turn resembles the regular rashaksa (putri satu) hilts. And even amongst the rashaksa hilts, there are variations which have heads which look like bulging-eyed aliens (Adni has a couple of examples which I had wanted to acquire).

So how did all of that variety happen? Through cross-fertilization of ideas, outright (imperfect) copying, and variations due to the sense of aesthetics of people from a region. There are other contributing factors for sure, like trade and war and their knock-on effects on keris styles in affected areas. It is not far fetched to imagine that when traders and migrants moved from island to island in the S.E.A. archipelago, they would have brought their kerises, and when locals saw it, they wanted something similar too. With the 'real McCoy' in short supply, some local craftsmen could have made their own versions of the keris/keris part, and slowly it caught on and started evolving.

BSMStar · 15th March 2006, 06:28 PM

Hi BluErf,

I am in full agreement with you and thanks again for your help.

Is anyone aware of techniques, materials and so on that may be a guide as to when an where silver items are made? I know that BluErf sees a Sumatran influence in some of the designs or motifs.

Is VVV's Coteng from (what is today) Thailand? There are obviously features that give it away. What should I be looking for in this bird hilt that will "give it away"?

Thank you again for your help.

BluErf · 16th March 2006, 02:48 PM

Ok, I hope I'm not hogging this thread...

It is possible to guess where a keris is from by looking at natural materials such as wood, and to some extent the metal. However, this is an inexact science, and we mustn't forget that trade has being ongoing between the islands for centuries, so materials can be exported/imported. The best bet is to look at the style of workmanship, the form and the motifs. There are no easy guidelines that can teach one how to make a judgement call on where an item is made. Instead, one has to look at as many examples as possible, and 'internalize' the style. Once that is internalized, it is a lot easier to see that a particular specimen is "not quite right". I'm sorry I can't answer your question the way you want, but there is really no shortcut.

To help you along, here's a link to Dave Henkel's Tajong/Coteng page.

http://www.kerisarchipelago.150m.com...ge/Tajong2.htm

As for motifs, I attach pics of 3 south Sumatran hilts for your reference. You may see why I thought your hilt has Sumatran influences. Though the same motif may exist in Java and even N Malaya, they are not executed in quite the same way.

Michael's coteng is from southern Thailand. The region is politically Thai, ethnographically Malay. The tension between these 2 factors are clearly evident in the reports of daily violence in Southern Thailand.

BSMStar · 16th March 2006, 05:31 PM

I hope I am being bad (Sorry VVV)

Thanks for the link BluErf... one thing that I noticed, is the mendaks. The Cotengs sit on top... and some of the Tajongs sit "inside" (the mendak goes around its base). The mendak on mine is extremely different from any other that I have ever seen (on any Keris that I have seen). I would not be able to replace it. The base of this hulu sits some what inside the mendak (like a ball and socket). It would seem that this style of mendak would be a telling sign of influence or origin.

I understand that the materials alone do not say much, but the techniques used to weld and create this hulu are important (the difference is in the details). Maybe silver over horn is commonly used too. However, there has to be some detail on this hulu that screams out that it is made in Sumatra, or Java, or even China. Alternatively, maybe should I be asking the opposite question, are there features that screams out where it was not made?

Unfortunately for me, experience is difficult to come by for these pieces. I have only seen 2 Tajongs in person, and no Cotengs. I do not know what to call this thing... other than a Garuda bird hilt. There is just not that many of these things in my "neck of the woods."

Oh, BTW... if those are your hilts... do you want do adopt a family (we are not much of a bother).

The more that I look at the second hilt down, that is hemi-spherical on the bottom and the geometric design on the medak (although it has much more relief)...hmmmm. Sumatran....

16th March 2006, 02:48 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ok, I hope I'm not hogging this thread... It is possible to guess where a keris is from by looking at natural materials such as wood, and to some extent the metal. However, this is an inexact science, and we mustn't forget that trade has being ongoing between the islands for centuries, so materials can be exported/imported. The best bet is to look at the style of workmanship, the form and the motifs. There are no easy guidelines that can teach one how to make a judgement call on where an item is made. Instead, one has to look at as many examples as possible, and 'internalize' the style. Once that is internalized, it is a lot easier to see that a particular specimen is "not quite right". I'm sorry I can't answer your question the way you want, but there is really no shortcut. To help you along, here's a link to Dave Henkel's Tajong/Coteng page. http://www.kerisarchipelago.150m.com...ge/Tajong2.htm As for motifs, I attach pics of 3 south Sumatran hilts for your reference. You may see why I thought your hilt has Sumatran influences. Though the same motif may exist in Java and even N Malaya, they are not executed in quite the same way. Michael's coteng is from southern Thailand. The region is politically Thai, ethnographically Malay. The tension between these 2 factors are clearly evident in the reports of daily violence in Southern Thailand. Attached Images

16th March 2006, 05:31 PM	#8
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I hope I am being bad (Sorry VVV) Thanks for the link BluErf... one thing that I noticed, is the mendaks. The Cotengs sit on top... and some of the Tajongs sit "inside" (the mendak goes around its base). The mendak on mine is extremely different from any other that I have ever seen (on any Keris that I have seen). I would not be able to replace it. The base of this hulu sits some what inside the mendak (like a ball and socket). It would seem that this style of mendak would be a telling sign of influence or origin. I understand that the materials alone do not say much, but the techniques used to weld and create this hulu are important (the difference is in the details). Maybe silver over horn is commonly used too. However, there has to be some detail on this hulu that screams out that it is made in Sumatra, or Java, or even China. Alternatively, maybe should I be asking the opposite question, are there features that screams out where it was not made? Unfortunately for me, experience is difficult to come by for these pieces. I have only seen 2 Tajongs in person, and no Cotengs. I do not know what to call this thing... other than a Garuda bird hilt. There is just not that many of these things in my "neck of the woods." Oh, BTW... if those are your hilts... do you want do adopt a family (we are not much of a bother). The more that I look at the second hilt down, that is hemi-spherical on the bottom and the geometric design on the medak (although it has much more relief)...hmmmm. Sumatran.... Last edited by BSMStar; 16th March 2006 at 05:51 PM.

10th March 2006, 09:09 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I am with you on this one B, i don't think it is correct to refer to your hilt as a "reproduction", just another in the vast myiad of variations to be found in the art of the keris and keris dress. And it is a very nicely crafted hilt indeed.

15th March 2006, 01:51 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi BSMStar, Ok, I see where you are coming from. We'll call your hilt a "coteng-styled keris hilt" in the future then. At any rate, it certainly is not junk. The maker had a good measure of ability to make something 3 dimensional like this and cover it in repoussed motifs which are neat and consistent. The world of keris is always evolving, even now. When we look at the keris hilts from the different regions, sometimes we can see that they obviously came from the same older form. Some hilts look like a distorted form of another (take the central Javanese 7-planar hilts and the variants from east Java). And we have seen how the tajong resembles the coteng, which also resembles the Tegal hilt, which in turn resembles the regular rashaksa (putri satu) hilts. And even amongst the rashaksa hilts, there are variations which have heads which look like bulging-eyed aliens (Adni has a couple of examples which I had wanted to acquire). So how did all of that variety happen? Through cross-fertilization of ideas, outright (imperfect) copying, and variations due to the sense of aesthetics of people from a region. There are other contributing factors for sure, like trade and war and their knock-on effects on keris styles in affected areas. It is not far fetched to imagine that when traders and migrants moved from island to island in the S.E.A. archipelago, they would have brought their kerises, and when locals saw it, they wanted something similar too. With the 'real McCoy' in short supply, some local craftsmen could have made their own versions of the keris/keris part, and slowly it caught on and started evolving.

15th March 2006, 06:28 PM	#6
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Hi BluErf, I am in full agreement with you and thanks again for your help. Is anyone aware of techniques, materials and so on that may be a guide as to when an where silver items are made? I know that BluErf sees a Sumatran influence in some of the designs or motifs. Is VVV's Coteng from (what is today) Thailand? There are obviously features that give it away. What should I be looking for in this bird hilt that will "give it away"? Thank you again for your help.