Swords in Art -- what is this?

DaveA · 16th July 2017, 09:56 PM

The blade in the picture is recurved. I don't see that among the examples in your linked photo.

More info: this painting is exhibited alongside 16th century icons.

ALEX · 16th July 2017, 10:01 PM

In the link, scroll down to post number 12, 4th image. Similarly shaped recurved blade. The painting is a bit stylized but the curve matches. 16th Century also matches this blade type period.

DaveA · 16th July 2017, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

In the link, scroll down to post number 12, 4th image. Similarly shaped recurved blade. The painting is a bit stylized but the curve matches. 16th Century also matches this blade type period.

When I refreshed the page the other pictures came up. Fabulous thread! Now I wish I had gone with my wife!

I agree, the sword in picture #4, post 14 could be a match. That sword is very interesting. Is the tip conical, as in a pesh kabz, for piercing chain mail armor?

Dave A

ALEX · 16th July 2017, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

When I refreshed the page the other pictures came up. Fabulous thread! Now I wish I had gone with my wife!

I agree, the sword in picture #4, post 14 could be a match. That sword is very interesting. Is the tip conical, as in a pesh kabz, for piercing chain mail armor?

Dave A

The earlier ones, around 15th Century, had sharp narrow tips with very shallow recurve. Unlike short Pesh Kabz of 18th-19thC they are not reinforced and not designed for armor piercing (generally, the sword is not well suited for that). Later, after 16thC the recurve got more defined as in above example.
An interesting thread where the early art is matching the early item.

ariel · 17th July 2017, 12:10 PM

Alex, are you referring to the old Circassian saber that Kirill Rivkin identifies as mysterious Jateh?

I am very dubious. IMHO, there is no mystery here, just a drawing inaccuracy of the artist. I vote for a simple Shamshir-like saber. The artist was no Rembrandt, that's for sure.

ALEX · 17th July 2017, 12:35 PM

Ariel, there are also 2 examples in the Astvatsatryan "Caucasian Arms" book, from the 15thC Russland. Their "bayonet-like" tips are not recurved as in the painting... the later example from the Hermitage seems to be later development of the form with more developed recurve... The forms of the handle and crossquard also conform to the 16thC period. I believe the author of the painting depicted the sword based on observed sample(s) of that time.
...
Here is the image of Hermitage sabre. The obviously stylized painting may refer to similar sword, notice the similarities in the blade and handle forms - almost pomeless handle, short crossguard, slight recurve to the blade. IMHO the similarities are quite evident to be an imaginative depiction.

mariusgmioc · 18th July 2017, 07:41 PM

Hello,

Before going deeper into this, I think we should notice that the blade in the painting DOES NOT FIT the scabbard where it is about to be inserted in!

So the recurved curvature is more likely the result of a painting error.

The painter started with a curvature, but then realised that the curvature wouldn't bring the tip of the blade to the opening of the scabbard and since he couldn't simply erase the blade and paint a new one, he simply made the adjustment to the curvature. As simple as that.

An indication regarding the skill of the painter can also be derived from the position of the hand holding the sword...

Alex, the sword in the museum photo has an obviously bent & twisted blade and is not at all recurved.

16th July 2017, 09:56 PM	#1
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	Yes, but... The blade in the picture is recurved. I don't see that among the examples in your linked photo. More info: this painting is exhibited alongside 16th century icons.

17th July 2017, 12:35 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Ariel, there are also 2 examples in the Astvatsatryan "Caucasian Arms" book, from the 15thC Russland. Their "bayonet-like" tips are not recurved as in the painting... the later example from the Hermitage seems to be later development of the form with more developed recurve... The forms of the handle and crossquard also conform to the 16thC period. I believe the author of the painting depicted the sword based on observed sample(s) of that time. ... Here is the image of Hermitage sabre. The obviously stylized painting may refer to similar sword, notice the similarities in the blade and handle forms - almost pomeless handle, short crossguard, slight recurve to the blade. IMHO the similarities are quite evident to be an imaginative depiction. Attached Images Last edited by ALEX; 17th July 2017 at 12:55 PM.

18th July 2017, 07:41 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Hello, Before going deeper into this, I think we should notice that the blade in the painting DOES NOT FIT the scabbard where it is about to be inserted in! So the recurved curvature is more likely the result of a painting error. The painter started with a curvature, but then realised that the curvature wouldn't bring the tip of the blade to the opening of the scabbard and since he couldn't simply erase the blade and paint a new one, he simply made the adjustment to the curvature. As simple as that. An indication regarding the skill of the painter can also be derived from the position of the hand holding the sword... Alex, the sword in the museum photo has an obviously bent & twisted blade and is not at all recurved. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 18th July 2017 at 10:29 PM.

16th July 2017, 10:01 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	In the link, scroll down to post number 12, 4th image. Similarly shaped recurved blade. The painting is a bit stylized but the curve matches. 16th Century also matches this blade type period.

17th July 2017, 12:10 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alex, are you referring to the old Circassian saber that Kirill Rivkin identifies as mysterious Jateh? I am very dubious. IMHO, there is no mystery here, just a drawing inaccuracy of the artist. I vote for a simple Shamshir-like saber. The artist was no Rembrandt, that's for sure.