The Omani Battle Sword. Sayf Yamaani.

[Gonzalo G]

Swords of Boabdil (Muhammad XII, Emir of Granada). In front, his jineta sword, a broadsword from the 15th Century. Seems related to your sword in some way. But much adorned, as for an Emir.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Swords of Boabdil (Muhammad XII, Emir of Granada). In front, his jineta sword, a broadsword from the 15th Century. Seems related to your sword in some way. But much adorned, as for an Emir.

Salaams Gonzalo G,
Whilst there may be some reflections from early Mamluke and even Sword of the Prophet similarity with the Spanish item I think it is only vaguely reminiscent however it is an excellent observation and I have included similar detail in the description below.

No one actually knows how old this old Omani Battle Sword is... The Sayf Yamaani, I suggest, predates Ibn Jalanda at the time Oman began to fight to remove the Abasiid from Oman in 751 AD...perhaps by 100 years.. but proving that is difficult.

Quote""The early Imamate in Oman arose out of a vision to create the true and ideal Muslim state. The first Ibadhi Imam, Julanda bin Mas'ud, was elected in 751 AD but he died in battle and it was not until 801 AD after a period of turmoil that Warith bin Kaab was elected. There then followed a period of peace, stability and prosperity lasting more than three hundred years".Unquote. The Omani people were converted following a letter delivered in 650 AD and it would make sense that if they were to fight for Islamic inclusion that a weapon with which to combat the invaders would be Iconic and thus I propose that this is a sword from that collection..or close to it.

As the name suggests Sayf Yamaani may be an early sword from the Hadramaut... further indication that a religious weapon from there was issued...and copied. This is not to suggest that all these swords are of that age... but that they continued to be produced perhaps in the famous iron foundry production around Nizwa.

The dates mentioned on the web are scattered all over the calendar from 1000 AD ...to the 19th C. The provenance on most is vague... and some try the Portuguese angle whilst others have different opinions... Iranian...etc

The difficulty arises in the fact that weapons were not buried with the dead in Islam although oddly one was dug up dating to about 18th or 19th C recently...

The Arts of the Muslim Knights gets it nearer reality at 1000 AD but that is not a proven birth date and an earlier date is just as likely, as I say, predating the 751AD Ibn Julanda situation..and pushes the weapon into range as one of the styles of Swords of The Prophet.

http://sword-site.com/thread/258/14t...-sword-kattara States OF A SOLD ITEM ~

Quote"Extremely rare antique Islamic Arab sword Kattara. Another similar Kattara sword is in the collection of the Furusiyya Art Foundation, this collection possesses very important Islamic Arms and Armour material, as described in the book-catalogue by the foundation, such important items are not to be found in other collections or museums. The title of this splendid book - catalog is, The Arts of the Muslim Knight – The Furusiyya Art Foundation Collection Concept and direction by Bashir Mohamed Printed and bound in Italy, First edition. Furthermore, the sword which we are proudly offering for sale is in an untouched condition with the Islamic calligraphic script, which the sword in The Furusiyya Art Foundation Collection does not have, so making this sword a real gem in any important collection of antique arms and armour or Islamic Art. REFERENSES: According to David Alexander, one of the leading experts on Islamic arms and armour where he describes a related sword in the Nasser D.K Khalili Collection in the book "The Arts of War" by David Alexander, swords of this type were used in Oman and the Gulf area from 1000 A.D. until the17th-18th century and can be seen in early Arab paintings such as a miniature in a copy of the Maqamat of al-Hariri, c.1225-35 A.D. For example an almost identical sword dated to the 12th-14th century is published in the Sotheby's catalogue of Islamic and Indian Art London 24-25 April 1991 lot 1113. The shape of the hilt became traditional in much of the Islamic world and can be seen for example in Nasrid swords of the 15th century, although this example has simple tubes in place of the dragon head quillons, it is probable that all ultimately derive from the sword of the Prophet. Since a sword was an expensive weapon and in the Islamic country the quality and the function of the sword was more important than the style or fashion, some types of swords continued to be popular for a century, for example the Persian Shamshir or Indian Talwar were used for a few hundred years and were passed from father to son and were used by the next generations, hence swords made earlier were still used after hundreds of years. DETAILS: An iron hilt with an octagonal grip attached to the tang by two rivets and a hole for the wrist strap with an octagonal peaked conical pommel showing remnants of silver inlay, the cross guard block is shoulder – shaped with down turned quillons. The blade is straight and is double-edged and has a cuff around its top, as most of these types of swords, and is decorated on the forte with a round medallion containing Arabic inscription. . REFERENSES:Askeri Museum Istanbul Turkey.inv.nos.2382 and 7620; for the latter see Alexandr 1985,no75 and Fig.4;other examples include Topkapi Sarayi Museum ,Istanbul,no1/2765;Wallace Collection, London England ,no1796;The Metropolitan Museum of Art,New York,no1987.43;and Splendeur des armes orientales 1988,no11 and Elgood, 1994,nos 2.13 and 2.15..MEASUREMENTS: The overall length is 87.7 cm (34 ½ in). Width of the blade at the widest point: 5.4 cm (2 1/16 inches)".Unquote

Source: http://www.trocadero.com/101antiques...tem747179.html

What the passage omits is that this is as far as I know the only stamped blade which may be Nizwa... I cannot read it. There are several Museum copies I know of including the Topkapi Askeri Museum and Al Ain Museum with a silvered hilt...(this weapon was awarded the Royal Hilt treatment in the reign of Saiid the Great the same hilt more or less as the Royal Khjanjar)and the TRM in Quwait; the Tareq Rajeb Museum that has one from me about 2 decades ago.

What I like about the picture below described above is the zig zag line at the base of the Hilt which almost forms a rectangle and the third hole near the pommel that was probably for the wrist strap. The circular stamp is very interesting.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

More. The right hand sword is the same as #82... Silvered up Iconised with the Royal style...

This weapon was used with the Terrs Shield.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Gonzalo G,
Whilst there may be some reflections from early Mamluke and even Sword of the Prophet similarity with the Spanish item I think it is only vaguely reminiscent however it is an excellent observation and I have included similar detail in the description below.

The origin of the jineta sword, or even most of the sword types from the muslim area in the Iberic Peninsula, are not "Spanish", but have their origin in North Africa or possibly the Middle East, not counting the very early purchases of swords to the Franks. The jineta sword type was carried into Spain by the Zenete or Zenata berbers from the nation (or "tribe", if you prefer this colonialistic denomination) of the Banu Marin. What concerns me, is the origin of this sword, characterized by the downcurved quillons, the pommel in the form of a dome and the broad blade with a fuller on the first half. Probably the hilt went to further elaboration in the Iberic Peninsula, as the quillons being elongated and their ends sometimes flattened to give space for adornments, and the pommels also being more elaborated. Eliminating those late ornaments, what remains is a fighting sword with a little more than a vague resemblance to your sword.

I don't think those muslim swords from the Iberic Peninsula have anything to do with the early Mamluk swords or the Sword of the Prophet (which one?). Before the Banu Marin, there were influences from the Almohades, and before them the Almoravids, who penetrated in this Peninsula by request of the muslim rulers over there. All of them connected with the Sahara Desert and its trade routes. The origins and development of many types of swords from North Africa and the Arab countries is something to be explored. I don't believe in the simplistic explanation of the "European influence" whenever is found a resemblance with Europe's types of swords, and though the cross-polinization among cultures is undoubtedly a fact, we actually don't know for certain the genealogy of these weapons.
Regards

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

The origin of the jineta sword, or even most of the sword types from the muslim area in the Iberic Peninsula, are not "Spanish", but have their origin in North Africa or possibly the Middle East, not counting the very early purchases of swords to the Franks. The jineta sword type was carried into Spain by the Zenete or Zenata berbers from the nation (or "tribe", if you prefer this colonialistic denomination) of the Banu Marin. What concerns me, is the origin of this sword, characterized by the downcurved quillons, the pommel in the form of a dome and the broad blade with a fuller on the first half. Probably the hilt went to further elaboration in the Iberic Peninsula, as the quillons being elongated and their ends sometimes flattened to give space for adornments, and the pommels also being more elaborated. Eliminating those late ornaments, what remains is a fighting sword with a little more than a vague resemblance to your sword.

I don't think those muslim swords from the Iberic Peninsula have anything to do with the early Mamluk swords or the Sword of the Prophet (which one?). Before the Banu Marin, there were influences from the Almohades, and before them the Almoravids, who penetrated in this Peninsula by request of the muslim rulers over there. All of them connected with the Sahara Desert and its trade routes. The origins and development of many types of swords from North Africa and the Arab countries is something to be explored. I don't believe in the simplistic explanation of the "European influence" whenever is found a resemblance with Europe's types of swords, and though the cross-polinization among cultures is undoubtedly a fact, we actually don't know for certain the genealogy of these weapons.
Regards

I dont disagree ...nor do I agree since both sides used the same weapon; The Christians developing it after it had been used against them by the Moors. Thus I used the generic name Spanish and since they were produced in Toledo in addition.

I agree that these swords carry similarities to the Old Sayf Yamaani but that it may simply be coincidental. The link may be in the influence of Swords of The Prophet which I think numbered about 7... of which examples are at Topkapi Museum.

The Sayf Yamaani appears to predate the Jineta by a few hundred years.

I would like to see all the information on the Jineta brought into focus and with its own consolidated thread so a good look can be made of the weapon...

PLEASE SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=JINETA+SWORD which is I think our only Library reference on this weapon.

Perhaps you would like to take that on... Naturally I would be in full support and I am sure others would chip in...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gonzalo G]

Ok, I saw the link to that discussion. And your post, three years latter. And your post over there answer my question. I just tried to know what is your opinion on the possible relation of both types of swords, and not to bring all the information on the jineta sword.

The term "Spanish" is derivated from "Spain". And Spain didn't exist in that time (15th Century), as "India" didn't exist before the British. Only a conglomerate of rival christian kingdoms speaking different languages and, of course Al-Andalus, and after it, the muslim Emirates (the "Taifa") and lastly, the Emirate of Granada. Spain is not a territory, but a nation state. But this political matter is not important in this discussion, so thank you for your opinion on the subject of the swords.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Ok, I saw the link to that discussion. And your post, three years latter. And your post over there answer my question. I just tried to know what is your opinion on the possible relation of both types of swords, and not to bring all the information on the jineta sword.

The term "Spanish" is derivated from "Spain". And Spain didn't exist in that time (15th Century), as "India" didn't exist before the British. Only a conglomerate of rival christian kingdoms speaking different languages and, of course Al-Andalus, and after it, the Muslim Emirates (the "Taifa") and lastly, the Emirate of Granada. Spain is not a territory, but a nation state. But this political matter is not important in this discussion, so thank you for your opinion on the subject of the swords.

Salaams, Perhaps I will open the thread on this weapon since we have hardly a page of detail on Library. The history of the region is very interesting not least the potential for discussion of Jinetas in this regard.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I HAVE A BETTER IDEA ... WHY DONT WE CONTINUE THE EXISTING THREAD ...Its only about one page thus, I suggest expanding on this simply by bringing it on !! Here goes....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A few more pictures as a reminder of the Old Omani Battle Sword... The Sayf Yamaani.

[Gonzalo G]

Interesting resemblance with a qattara in Mozarab-Spanish illustrations.

92a-b) Illustrations of ‘Sword of St. Peter’ and ‘Guards at the Holy Sepulche’ in the Avila Bible, Mozarab-Spanish 12-13 cent AD (Biblioteca Nacional, Ms. ER8, Madrid). 93) Carving of ‘St. James’, Spanish 12-13 cent AD (in situ Church of Santiago, Betanzos, La Coruña).