Persian and Ottoman maces

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Below the caption described these as Indo Persian Maces... which to the non specialist is equally confusing .

Ibrahimm, that image also contains individual descriptions.

Various Indo-Persian maces, from left: Bozdogan/buzdygan (Ottoman), tabar-shishpar (Indian), shishpar (Indian), shishpar (unknown), gurz (Indian), shishpar (Indian).

Describing items as "Indo-Persian" is no different than when you have maces from Europe and you say "European" maces. Indo-Persian is just a way to group items together, it is an internet tag word that is picked up by search engines. It is very helpful when searching online.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ibrahimm, that image also contains individual descriptions.




Describing items as "Indo-Persian" is no different than when you have maces from Europe and you say "European" maces. Indo-Persian is just a way to group items together, it is an internet tag word that is picked up by search engines. It is very helpful when searching online.

Salaams estcrh, I don't have an axe to grind with Maces in fact its an excellent thread... I also don't want to get wound up in the wording used by the web although it can be seen that Indo/ Persian rather haphazardly groups a huge selection of everything weapon wise in one bag.
Was it not one of the aims of this thread to separate the Maces so that they could be further identified and to expand on the subject it was mentioned at #1 that Indian weapons were also in the conundrum...? Which indeed by definition of Indo/ Persian they certainly are.

Thus, I think an appraisal of each style would have been the way forward.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Thus, I think an appraisal of each style would have been the way forward.

Ibrahiim, I agree with you but there are really not many mace examples that can be positively identified as being Persian. We know that the bulls head and devils head maces are Persian, and some maces have known Persian carvings / decorations but the rest do not seen to have anything that helps distinguish between Ottoman and Persian as far as I can see other than certain styles of flanged and smooth maces which have been identified as being Persian due to similarity in form to older known examples and the lack of similar Ottoman maces made in the same style.

Below is a good study example, there are a few maces that I know of made in this style. They seem to have been forged from one piece of iron / steel, flanged with embedded bead type decorations, this one I have in my collection....I always have thought it might be Ottoman, but now I an thinking that it may possible be Persian as I have not seen any known Ottoman maces with similar decorations. Any thoughts????

[estcrh]

A few other example of the same type.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams estcrh, That mace form appears at #25 on left of photo with other Indo Persian examples...but identified as Bozdogan/buzdygan (Ottoman) which generally means round headed mace.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Kubur]

My mace finally
Originaly covered with goftary with the wings plated with red copper
It looks to me Persian...
Very heavy stuff, not like some persian axes very light and decorative...

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Kubur

My mace finally
Originaly covered with goftary with the wings plated with red copper
It looks to me Persian...
Very heavy stuff, not like some persian axes very light and decorative...

If the other maces like this are Persian then your mace is Persian, a nice, rare example.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams estcrh, That mace form appears at #25 on left of photo with other Indo Persian examples...but identified as Bozdogan/buzdygan (Ottoman) which generally means round headed mace.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Yes, this type had been described as being "Ottoman"...but is it? Descriptions can be wrong, if you look at Stones images of various maces you will see this image and description.

#21. Persia, all steel, head a grooved ball.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Yes, this type had been described as being "Ottoman"...but is it? Descriptions can be wrong, if you look at Stones images of various maces you will see this image and description.

#21. Persia, all steel, head a grooved ball.

I think that is part of the problem... It would appear they both have almost identical terms for this weapon... thus they probably both used it ...Stone only mentions one in your picture as possibly Ottoman; he calls Asiatic Turkey. The comparison seems only to be Persian/Indian although I see China mentioned also.
The way they get around the description is to throw the lot in... Indo-Persian bozdogan / buzdygan mace (Ottoman or Persian)


Here's another..

[eftihis]

I got these 2 maces recently. For size comparison i have placed them near an ottoman axe. What do you think, ottoman or Persian? The shaft is masiff iron. Also i am puzzled about the size of the smaller one. Could this be a mace with such a short shaft? And what is the reason for the flanged ending at the other side?

[werecow]

Not directly related to the items shown in this thread, but I happened across this video yesterday about medieval Islamic maces and axes that may be of interest to people reading this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kte3-QBSR_8

(I should note that I know nothing about these. Also some of the weights he mentions seem absurdly high but perhaps I'm missing something there.)