Knives from the San Giorgia auction

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Marcus

*This title translates to “White Weapons from the Middle Ages to the Modern Age”. There are not really very many modern weapons covered and I guess “White” refers to White people, since the catalog does not cover Asian or African weapons.

Marcus, the "white" arms in the title refers not to the ethnicity of their makers or users, not at all. The term "armi bianche" or "armes-blanches" to describe weapons with blades derives from an old usage, the whiteness being compared to shining steel. (the Ottomans called a type of wootz steel "baiaz stamboul" or Istanbul "white", in a similar vein). As opposed to the sooty blackness associated with the powder fouling in the firearms of olden times. In other languages, the term "cold" is used instead -- as "kholodnoye oruzhiye" in Russian, "lengbingqi" in Chinese for the class of edged weapons. So we see a similar usage, "cold steel", in modern English.

[Gonzalo G]

Is the same in Castilian (Spanish). The term "armas blancas" means weapons made of steel (white=steel) In english "edged weapons" could include any weapon with an edge (like a bronze weapon). Not in Castiglian. But "armas blancas" do include maces or flails, which are not "edged", but also made of steel. Only taxonomies are applied on this matter, as far I can know, criteria based on materials, or criteria based on design or type of use.

Regards

[fernando]

Definitely Albacete knives are not to be plugged into gun barrels; the only doubt resides in sellers (or others) assumptions, whether being due to ignorance or for commercial reasons.
Whereas hunting bayonets, plug bayonets, bayonetas de taco, bayonetas de caça, are all correlative; whether you used them for hunting or in combat; whether you mount them in your gun when you have to parry a wounded game and you have no time for reloading or for military strategy in battle.
I guess (guess) wobbling was not much of an issue, as grip taper would be made for, or adjusted to, different barrels bore (caliber) opening, in a way to completely stick before meeting its swell; actually narrations exist in that they get so stuck that sometimes it demands for some (even mechanic) strength to take them out the barrel.

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[corrado26]

"armas blancas" in Spain, "armes blanches" in France and "Blankwaffen" in Germany are in my opinion all arms with blades of all materials.
corrado26

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

"armas blancas" in Spain, "armes blanches" in France and "Blankwaffen" in Germany are in my opinion all arms with blades of all materials.
corrado26

As also "armas brancas" in Portugal. I guess you should consider the term in its different acceptations; coloquial, legal and etymologic. Over here they are currently considered as edged weapons, but legally they are all non firearms weapons ... those not only for offense/defense but also for domestic use. On the other hand, the term may (may) have its origin in the 'white' shade steel of sword blades, presumably of Moorish origin and brought to the Peninsula.


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[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

As also "armas brancas" in Portugal. I guess you should consider the term in its different acceptations; coloquial, legal and etymologic. Over here they are currently considered as edged weapons, but legally they are all non firearms weapons ... those not only for offense/defense but also for domestic use. On the other hand, the term may (may) have its origin in the 'white' shade steel of sword blades, presumably of Moorish origin and brought to the Peninsula.


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Actually, it is the old debate about if the popular (or vulgar, as we say in Spanish) use of some word and its associated meaning should consacrate its valiidty and inclusion in the official languaje, substituting the original word-meaning, which was the proper one. It involves also the subject of the corruption of language, due ignorance, external influences (from other languages), or some other cause. The Royal Academy of the Spanish Language (Real Academia de la Lengua Española), the ultimate authority on the subject of the Spanish language and of the different meanings of the words, defines "arma blanca" as an "offensive weapon whose blade is made from iron or steel, like the sword":

http://dle.rae.es/?id=3a3iLLv

Now, one of the greatest Spanish authorities on the matter, Dn. Enrique de Leguina, in his Glossary of Voices of Armory (Glosario de Voces de Armería, Librería de Felipe Rodríguez, Madrid, España, 1912), on page 85, defines "armas blancas" also as those made from iron or steel. You can download the book here:


https://archive.org/details/glosariodevocesd00leguuoft

This is also the meaning given to this words by the cultured Spanish-speaking specialists on the matter, stricto senso. Of course, it can have also, lato sensu, on the street, the meaning of any metal weapon not beign fireweapon, or even any weapon beign a non-firingweapon, but apart from beign vague, one of the rules to define a concept, or to formulate a definition, is to enumerate positively what it is, and not what it is not. "Armas blancas" is a very precise and specific concept in Spanish. We have an equivalent for "edged weapons", which is "armas de corte", which includes all edged weapons, even those made from flint or obsidian, but not maces, flails, macanas (those are called "contundent weapons", but are "armas blancas" only if made of iron or steel), etc. If not made from steel or iron, what would be the case to call them "blancas-bianche-white"?

And if this a matter of controvery, alow me to rephrase: "Is the same in Castilian (Spanish). The term "armas blancas" properly means weapons made of steel..."

Fer, "armas" also designated the armour of a knight, including his shield. A knight just made or "armoured" could not had the right to use personal badge-emblem-ensign over his armour and shield, as he had not commited yet any feat. So the term "armas blancas" in Spanish-Castilian originally meant the armour and shield carried without badge-emblem-ensign by knight. Nothing over his armour or shield made of iron and/or steel (which is blanco-white), thus "armas blancas", a knight with "armas blancas". And by extension, a little latter the term was applied to his steel weapons. Please consult Enrique Leguina.

Regards

[fernando]

Caro Gonzalo

I do have Leguina works, including the one you mention. I am also aware of the white/blancas/brancas arms/armas interpretations in the various contexts, namely those in current dictionaries as also in legal classifications. The portuguese dictionary reads: object of polished steel, which serves to cut or perforate. The portuguese arms law reads: all object or portable instrument provided with a blade or other cutting or perforating surface of length equal or superior to 10 cms. or with a cutting/perforating part, as well as destined to throw blades, arrows or bolts, independently from its dimensons. The bow figures in an article alone but is also included in the white arms legl concept.
Further coloquial interpretations are also aknowledged, like the one you mention being the 'novel' knight without 'arms/insigns' in his shield, a specific concept, notwithstanding other rules like those of the Templars, who never bore heraldic insigns but only the typical cross. The term (white) blanco can extend so far as meaning 'target' in castillian.
But if i may and recuperating the real issue that i have approached, the question is: why is the word 'white' intrinsic to edged weapons. I have previously said that, the term was due to the white of the blade steel and may (may) have been brought over by the Moors. Well, it seems as i was only wrong in one of the premises. I went back consulting a couple sources and the assumption i found is that :

As from the XVIII century, with the development of the pistol, the haquebut and the cannon, the concept 'arm' gained two sub-species: firearms, which used the energy of gunpowder, and the white arms, generaly equiped with a blade, which depended from human arms strength.
It then happens that, the Bluteau dictionary (1720) distinguishes firearms from white arms, the late called as such, he says, "because they were of whitened or silvered steel" (usefull to remember that white comes from the germanic blank, "shining, polished, white", which combines perfectly with the looking of steel)
The expression white arm, therefore, is nothing more than one of the first examples of retronímia (or retroformation, as preferred by some)

Obviously this leaves a gap, in that early kights armour wad also called white arms ... or was it not?

Abrazo


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