ratcheting mechanism on Spanish Navajas

[Chris Evans]

Mariusgmioc,

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

We can speculate ad nausea about the primary role of the "carraca" mechanism but technically there is a clear reason for it: SAFETY. More exactly to ensure a controlled closure of the blade all the way.

While for a small or "normal" size pocket knife controlling the closure of the blade is not a problem, for a 30 cm (12") blade (quite common size for the fighting navajas) the accidental closure from an incomplete opened position can be disatrous for the owner's fingers. Hence, the necessity to provide the knife with additional safety.

All this said, there might also be the dramatic (whether intimidating, warning or simply flashy) effect of the "carraca" sound when opening the navaja.

You may well be right, but the French lockable clasp knives did not have them, except those made specifically for the Spanish market, es exemplified by Giordias.

In fact most large French `navajas' exported to Spain in the 19th century did not even have a positive lock, sporting only a robust variation of what we call the slipjoint and which I call a demi-lock.

Also Italians had ratchets on their variations of the large `navaja' but by the late 19th century the `teat' lock took over and the ratchet disappeared.

So what are we to make out off all this? Did safety suddenly become superfluous? And why did some old Spanish navajas have 15 teeth and others only three?

And here's something else to consider: With the old piclock and the later ring lock, the fingers were not threatened when intentionally closing the clasp knife. This danger only materialized with the introduction of the lever release on Spanish knives at the end of the 19th century.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution.
Standing way before the knowledge of universal fencing techniques, i see in (navaja) field fighting terms that is a more remote move to try and grasp the opponent’s knife with a free hand than use it to for self protection; apart from scenes viewed in old movies, we have two drawings shown in Forton’s work where the free hand is used to wrap a custom piece, eventually a jacket, to use as a shield to parry the opponent’s blows. And i can only think that a propper way to hold a ratchet knife is to lay the thumb on the latch, an easy procedure to follow.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...Well, the navajas with "globes" originated from France, so what are we to make of that ?...

So indeed the globes came from France, as consistent with Forton’s ... but were they French ? although not worthing a valid fact, the Moors invasion also reached Southern France; but more valid is that there are no rattle snakes in France. In a quick research, we find a website where the French expert defines one of these "queue de crotal" tail navajas as being made for the Spanish market, which in turn exported them to Mexico, thus the reason for the handle with a rattle snake tail.

" Il s'agit bien d'un couteau de fabrication française, fin XIXème, début XXème. A l'époque, la France produisait beaucoup de couteaux pour l'exportation. Celui ci était destiné à l'Espagne... qui l'exportait à son tour au Mexique ! (d'où l'extrémité en forme de queue de crotale)".

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

…fixed blade knives were in all ways better as both tools and weapons, so why bother with complicated and labor intensive mechanisms?...

Let it be no doubt that fixed blade knives are definitely more convenient for both daily and fighting use but, why not contemplating other conveniences like, for one, being able to fold them into half dimensions for better transport. Besides and more important, you could easily hurt yourself with an open navaja inside your pocket or behind your sash.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

… Why were so many navajas of the 20th century inscribed with the ubiquitous `TOLEDO' inscription, when they were actually being made in Albacete and Santa Cruz De Mudela? A common guess is that the tourists wanted to buy a piece of famous Toledo steel. So it may well be the same with the carraca...

Good and pertinent point; notwithstanding that, despite the bulk of navajas production being Albacete and Mudela originated, also Toledo had its share, judging by Forton fig. 232, with a blade engraving ARTILLERIA TOLEDO, a name that would only occurr to that factory, during its “modern” end XIX century period. Besides, quoting Forton’s work, several marks gathered by Santiago Palomares from the XVIII century (and earlier) Toledo sword smiths punzones were also present in precious blades of “cuchillos y navajas”… for what this is worth.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...What i find puzzling about the ratchets is that many navajas, not just Spanish but also Italian had this feature, yet so many had only three teeth, which came into play only at the final phases of opening or at the early stages of closure...

Probably the three teeth were just the start; then came the increasing of its quantity, a sign of traditional 'evolution'. I remember in my youth, people commenting that X person had a six cracks ‘navalha’. So it comes in Forton’s work, as in a copla here shown, where the singer is bragging about his seven muelles (springs/cracks) navaja:

"Mi navaja de Albacete,
que de muelles tiene siete,
Hiere, mata, pincha y raja.
Mi navaja es una alhaja,
si señor."

Originally Posted by kronckew

… the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening...

The point would not be that of preventing things from happening … but give the other side a chance for a fair fight … i would guess …


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[fernando]

I went back to the pictures of a XVIII century Mudela navaja i once had. The picture quality is not so famous and the ratchet teeth are somehow worn but, might i make a point in that, once the blade accidently disengages from the main notch, are those little scoops that will prevent it from fully folding ... or are they no more than a noise carraca ?


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[Chris Evans]

Fernando

Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution.

Could have started as a cultural/legal requirement and then became an entrenched tradition.

Standing way before the knowledge of universal fencing techniques, i see in (navaja) field fighting terms that is a more remote move to try and grasp the opponent’s knife with a free hand than use it to for self protection; apart from scenes viewed in old movies, we have two drawings shown in Forton’s work where the free hand is used to wrap a custom piece, eventually a jacket, to use as a shield to parry the opponent’s blows. And i can only think that a propper way to hold a ratchet knife is to lay the thumb on the latch, an easy procedure to follow.

The traditional Spanish fight with knives was with some parrying implement in the off hand, usually a jacket or a hat, and the knife in the other, all in the manner of old rapier play. We know this from paintings, the writings of the fencing historian Egerton Castle and the surviving knife fighting in Latin America.

So indeed the globes came from France, as consistent with Forton’s ... but were they French ? although not worthing a valid fact, the Moors invasion also reached Southern France; but more valid is that there are no rattle snakes in France. In a quick research, we find a website where the French expert defines one of these "queue de crotal" tail navajas as being made for the Spanish market, which in turn exported them to Mexico, thus the reason for the handle with a rattle snake tail

.

Can't comment much on this as I don't know, and unfortunately my French is limited to counting to six! These peculiar knife handle ends came into fashion in the 19th century, so by this time they would have known what a rattle snake was - Just a guess......

Let it be no doubt that fixed blade knives are definitely more convenient for both daily and fighting use but, why not contemplating other conveniences like, for one, being able to fold them into half dimensions for better transport. Besides and more important, you could easily hurt yourself with an open navaja inside your pocket or behind your sash.

No doubt that in the smaller sizes folding knifes were and are considered much more convenient, but even with today's technology the intersection point with fixed blades is somewhere around 4"-5" blade length, dictated by weight and robustness.Yet the navajas of old had blades of 6"- 9 " And then there's the matter of poor speed of deployment with folders, which is a paramount consideration with a weapon.

.....also Toledo had its share, judging by Forton fig. 232, with a blade engraving ARTILLERIA TOLEDO, a name that would only occurr to that factory, during its “modern” end XIX century period.

Now you have opened a real can of worms and this merits a separate thread!

We have the same problem with the navajas that bear the brand (Spanish: Punzon) of Valero Jun of Saragoza. We don't know whether those knives were made in Spain or France and then sold with the distributor's name stamped onto them. This is remains a well entrenched practice in the cutlery industry, and has been for quite a long time.

If you have Forton's Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas De Coleccion, have a look on pg93 at #100, a photo of a very French looking navaja. Forton made this comment: Navaja tipica del artesano Valero Jun de Zaragosa, sin embargo la marca de su hoja dice `Navajas De Toledo'. Punzon falso? Ejemplo de que los navajeros toledanos sabian hacer a la perfeccion lo que se fabricaba en Aragon?

Sometime ago there was a lively debate on Spanish forums re this topic and the majority opinion was that the knives were made in France and distributed in Spain under the retailers name.

This conclusion was reached by considering that:

a) These knives were identical with those made in France;
b) by the mid 19th century the Spanish cutlery industry was in a very poor shape and imports from France were pouring into the country at the rate of over one million per year (see Forton); And
c) the workmanship was way above of the knives made in Spain at that time.

But of course, this is something else that will not be settled to everybody's satisfaction in a hurry!

Besides, quoting Forton’s work, several marks gathered by Santiago Palomares from the XVIII century (and earlier) Toledo sword smiths punzones were also present in precious blades of “cuchillos y navajas”… for what this is worth.

Can you please provide more details? Any mention of the typology of the navajas?

The point would not be that of preventing things from happening … but give the other side a chance for a fair fight … i would guess …

This would have been true of common folks, who often had very noisy and showy stand-offs without ever laying a blade on their opponents, and after making a display of bravura reconciled and went on to do other things. But I don't think that the `bandoleros' and other criminals, especially in the presidios, never mind the infamous barateros, were all that interested in a fair fight; But who knows, it was all a long time ago....

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Hello Chris, if i may ...

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... Can't comment much on this as I don't know, and unfortunately my French is limited to counting to six! These peculiar knife handle ends came into fashion in the 19th century, so by this time they would have known what a rattle snake was - Just a guess......

The point not being whether French cuttlers knew what a rattle snake was, but that of adopting a non territorial reptile as a home decor; certainly more plausible that they made these handles for those familiar with such snake, where there are some 27 sub-species - i would say ...

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...Can you please provide more details? Any mention of the typology of the navajas? ...

Forton ... LA NAVAJA ANTIGUA ESPAÑOLA
Page 170/171
[Quoting] The 3th September 1772 is the day Francisco Santiago Palomares concludes his Noticia de la Fabrica de Espadas de Toledo which, for so many centuries until end XVII century ...
... We quote this author and work here for two fundamental reasons: the first is that although in principle he apparently referred exclusively to sword making, reality is different, once from the 93 punctions shown and identified, many of them are found in beautiful cuchillos and navajas, which indicates that these sword smiths equally dedicated themselves to the fabrication of short white weapons and domestic utensiles of determined category ...
... little intensity whould have had the guild life of Cuchilleros Toledanos during the last third of the XVIII when they, which had ordnances since 1689, required new ones in 1775, as noted by Larruga. Then Forton writes about the cuchilleros of Granada in 1776 ...and so on.

We can also see in the chapter dedicated to marks, quite a few from the XIX century FABRICA DE TOLEDO; but as expected no one personal mark of sword smiths, as specimens from so early age are not presently gathered ... or revealed to public.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... But I don't think that the `bandoleros' and other criminals, especially in the presidios, never mind the infamous barateros, were all that interested in a fair fight ...

Most probably those characters did not elect the noisy ratchet version .


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[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

The point not being whether French cuttlers knew what a rattle snake was, but that of adopting a non territorial reptile as a home decor; certainly more plausible that they made these handles for those familiar with such snake, where there are some 27 sub-species - i would say ...

If I understand you right, and please correct me if I don't, what you seem to be suggesting is that the "globules" feature on french navajas was catering for an export market that could relate that to rattle snakes. If so, then perhaps it may have started out out that way and the remained; Or as we say, was invited to lunch and remained for dinner.

Forton ... LA NAVAJA ANTIGUA ESPAÑOLA
Page 170/171

The 3th September 1772 is the day Francisco Santiago Palomares concludes his Noticia de la Fabrica de Espadas de Toledo which, for so many centuries until end XVII century ...
... We quote this author and work here for two fundamental reasons: the first is that although in principle he apparently referred exclusively to sword making, reality is different, once from the 93 punctions shown and identified, many of them are found in beautiful cuchillos and navajas, which indicates that these sword smiths equally dedicated themselves to the fabrication of short white weapons and domestic utensiles of determined category ...
... little intensity whould have had the guild life of Cuchilleros Toledanos during the last third of the XVIII when they, which had ordnances since 1689, required new ones in 1775, as noted by Larruga. Then Forton writes about the cuchilleros of Granada in 1776 ...and so on.

Many thanks. One problem we have here is that `navaja' in Spanish is a generic term for folding knife and not a specific typology. If it said something like "navaja de muelle", or "navaja de virola giratoria" then we would be on familiar terrain. But otherwise, it could have referred to just simple friction folders, very common to this day in Spain.



Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... If I understand you right, and please correct me if I don't, what you seem to be suggesting is that the "globules" feature on french navajas was catering for an export market that could relate that to rattle snakes...

Precisely ... and my suggestion comes from the categoric assumption of that French website apparent connoisseur.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

If so, then perhaps it may have started out out that way and the remained; Or as we say, was invited to lunch and remained for dinner. ...

As so often happens ... both with adopted features as with sticky guests .

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

Regarding another query re navajas by Richard, I was looking through my library on this subject and came across a reference by the distinguished Argentinean knife scholar Abel Domenech re the carraca.

Succinctly stated, he opines that the reason for it is lost in time, but may have been intended to provide additional security re accidental closure by providing backup notches to the main notch in case it failed. He attributes the poor quality of the early recycled steels used in making navajas for this added precaution. My own view on this is that the sloppy lockwork seen on too many navajas would also have been a contributing factor.

He adds, that a navaja with carraca can be opened silently by lifting the backspring away from the teeth.

I will add, that as far as cutting oneself whilst closing the knife, this is highly unlikely with old navajas on account the way the knife is usually held during this operation.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

... Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution...

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... Could have started as a cultural/legal requirement and then became an entrenched tradition...

I was lurking in a Spanish blades forum how Spaniards untangle the ratchet riddle. It seems as they don't possess the craking themselves, but what comes out of their brainstorm is that, while the technical part may consist in a handicap as, if the materials are not first grade, the scoops wear out and the safety becomes problemtic, in lack of a better argument the effect of the rattle (carraca) serves nothing but dissuassion/intimidation.
One member recalls an anecdote:
"During the uprising on the 2nd May 1808 against the French army, the early morning gathered hundreds of people in Puerta del Sol, as news of various confrontations for Madrid were heating up their moods. Suddenly one only voice among the crowd shouted, Hurray for the French, Viva el Rey, Viva España. The following noise which followed that shout was that of hundreds of ratchets being unfolded one after the other, cri cri cri ... all with the same purpose ..."

Here is the link, for those familiar with castillian:

http://armasblancas.mforos.com/93317...ue-la-carraca/

[Gonzalo G]

Actually, the translation would be: "Let's go over the French, hurray for the king, hurray for Spain". Don't forget that the Frech were the enemies. That was the moment when the Spanish people rebelled against the French invaders and fought them with navajas, and tools for livestock management (rejones and garrochas) against the mameluke cavalry.

In the same thread from that forum they mention the intimidating effect of a repeating shotgun beign loaded. Sound effect of semi and auto guns beign loaded is intimidating, but the mechanism has not that intention. Bad quality of the materials in a mechanism does not invalidate the need of a mechanism, or its utility. I must agree that this mechanism originally has a safety purpose, which in time involved more cultural-oriented purposes. The sound of the ratchet is intimidating against an unarmed agressor, and same is the sound of loading a semi handgun. The potential effect of disuasiveness in this situation is undeniable. It is a way to stop an unarmed agressor. And it works!, but not against hardened criminals who does not believe you are going to actually use the weapon or to dare to, or that you don't know how to use it properly or when they are so intoxicated that they don't care about it. But the the same apply for the case of the fireweapons. And also this could became also as an marketing identifier of this Spanish navajas, along their charcteristic traditional profile. Yes, as Fernando says, it could became a cultural-oriented tradition. But the original function was other.

[Chris Evans]

Gonzalo,

Sound effect of semi and auto guns beign loaded is intimidating, but the mechanism has not that intention.

A point very well made!

......but not against hardened criminals who does not believe you are going to actually use the weapon or to dare to, or that you don't know how to use it properly or when they are so intoxicated that they don't care about it.

Succintly put, this is the main problem with this hypothesis.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Actually, the translation would be: "Let's go over the French, hurray for the king, hurray for Spain". Don't forget that the French were the enemies...

I know the French were the enemies; i just made a wrong translation for "a por los". I took it that, the one only shouting voice was that of a traitor welcoming the French, and the "hurray for the King" was to Napoleon's older brother José, whom he appointed King of Spain in 1808, the date of the anecdote, remaining until 1813. And so the navajas ratchet explosion would be to react against him .

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

I know the French were the enemies; i just made a wrong translation for "a por los". I took it that, the one only shouting voice was that of a traitor welcoming the French, and the "hurray for the King" was to Napoleon's older brother José, whom he appointed King of Spain in 1808, the date of the anecdote, remaining until 1813. And so the navajas ratchet explosion would be to react against him .

Very understandable, Fernando. "A por los.." is an old castilian expression, not used anymore. Meaning more or less "Let's fall over the French" or, as Chris said, "Let's attack the French". The king referred was not Pepe Botella (José Bonaparte), as he was commonly called by the Spanish population for his excessive inclination toward drinking, but Fernado VII.
Regards

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

I was lurking in a Spanish blades forum how Spaniards untangle the ratchet riddle.

Thanks for the link. I read that thread and it seems to me that other than the wear caused by the ratchet teeth, they were engaged in the same guessing game as we are.

I found posts 4 and 12 interesting.

Re post 19: Gonzalo is right in that the popular sentiment was against the French; Whereas your translation, as I read it, is ambiguous could be read as let us go over to their side. Something like "let us attack the French....", whilst not a literal translation, would have conveyed the intent better.

It seems as they don't possess the craking themselves, but what comes out of their brainstorm is that, while the technical part may consist in a handicap as, if the materials are not first grade, the scoops wear out and the safety becomes problemtic,

I am very familiar with this all too common problem, particularly with the cheaper renditions.

A well made navaja ratchet has the peak of the teeth slightly rounded so that it does not cut away the back spring, which by necessity is softer than the blade.

Cheers
Chris