ratcheting mechanism on Spanish Navajas

Chris Evans · 28th June 2017, 05:32 AM

A. G. Maisey:

According to Forton the bulk of the navajas were relatively small, if I remember right, six to nine inches in blade length. The larger ones were show pieces, many destined for the souvenir market.

And yes, the ones with very large blades, especially if a bit loose, could be flipped open.

As an aside, the technical problem with navajas once the blade length exceeded nine inches was that their weight went up significantly and they remained very weak at the pivot point.

Quote:

I had assumed that they were weapons, rather than tools, and as weapons they required a very positive locking system to prevent the blade being closed on the user's hand by an opponent

This is another thesis for explaining the ratchet. If the main tooth failed, then there were others as `back-ups'

Machinist: I think that what you are describing with the rattle snake pommels are large folding knives made in France, mostly for the Spanish market.

Cheers
Chris

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2017, 06:53 AM

Chris, my navajas are now +30 years out of my possession, but I do recall that two of them had very strong pivot points, the blade extension that provided the foundation for the ratchet teeth went back a good distance into the handle, these were loose joints when unlocked, but very solid joints when locked, there was absolutely nothing "tourist" or souvenir about them.

The third one I had I seem to recall was a bit flimsy, not nearly the same quality as the two I mentioned with solid joints.

I'm probably wrong, but I've never thought of navajas as smaller knives. If we can count any folder with a ratchet locking joint as a navaja I've actually had quite a few navajas, I think all were fairly recent --- say not more than 60 or 70 years old, and just about normal pocket knife size. Over the years I've traded most of these away for other pocket knives, I think I've still got one though.

kronckew · 28th June 2017, 07:30 AM

couple for illustration, the stag one is quite large (and noisy).

...and some ring pulls, they are mostly in the same family

there is a saying that the sound of the navaja was the last thing many people heard.

Chris Evans · 28th June 2017, 09:43 AM

A.G. Maisey:

I cannot comment on your navajas without photos and some additional information.

However, I have a representative collection of traditional 19th and 20th century navajas and none of the larger ones are light, in practical terms, or passably strong at the lock. I have handled many antique navajas over the years and have yet to see one with a blade over 9" that was practical..

This subject got a very through airing on this forum about 13 years ago and if you do a search you'll finds lots of good information.

kronckew: Nice collection!

Cheers
Chris

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2017, 12:39 PM

Thanks for your remarks Chris.

Obviously I'm not looking for any comments on the navajas I had +30 years ago. They are no longer in my possession, and I have no idea where they might be, I was only throwing an offhand comment into the discussion.

Yes, I've seen previous discussion on navajas, but I'm not really interested in pursuing the subject. I accept that you are expert in this subject, I admit that I am not, I can only comment in objective terms upon what I have seen.

Chris Evans · 28th June 2017, 01:27 PM

A.G. Maisey:

I apologize if I sounded a bit censorious and I do not for a moment disbelieve what you say.

The original question by Richard was re the function of the ratchet, which originated in Spain quite early in the development of the navaja. In that context, we have to keep in mind the technical limitations that those cutlers were confronted by, and the role of the said ratchet in that historical setting.

What I mean by my remarks was that the justification for your experience has to be sought in the make, typology and age of your knives. Modern knives can do all sorts of things that the antiques could not and have no bearing on the original intent behind the ratchet.

As an aside, locking clasp knives of the Spanish pattern were made in many countries besides Spain, as afar as India and Africa, and many of these were way better than those of Hispanic make. The French in particular made very good `navajas' in the 19th century and these were eagerly imported into Spain in huge quantities.

Cheers
Chris

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2017, 01:46 PM

The navajas I was talking about were all old ones, i recall one had a horn handle, and the horn was separating because of age and neglect. I had never thought of navajas as small folders until I read the remarks in this thread.

As I have said, I have no expert knowledge of navajas, and very little interest, but I do have a background in custom knifemaking and I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for about 12 years. My opinion of these knives as a maker is that they needed an effective method of locking the blade in place, and when these things first appeared it is unlikely that good spring steel was a practical application. I would guess that the very early ancestors of navajas were like a lot of early folders, no backspring, no locking mechanism. A lot of Italian folders are made like this even today.

The blade in a folder without a spring or locking mechanism can be made with an extension that comes down onto the back of the handle when the blade is open, and the hand holds the blade open, but this design is far from a secure lock. Probably when it became possible for small pieces of spring steel to be used the cheapest and most practical method was the notch on the back of the blade locking into a sprung catch. The ratchet would have followed this.

That's the way I look at it as a maker:- a simple, cheap, mechanical fix. Totally practical for somebody working with simple technology and tools.

Chris Evans · 28th June 2017, 02:16 PM

A. G. Maisey:

Quote:

I had never thought of navajas as small folders until I read the remarks in this thread

Well, "small" is a relative term and I did qualify it by quoting Forton's 6"-9"range for average size.

Whilst they did come in all sizes, from very small to gigantic, my remarks were in relation to the big navajas that many collectors wrongly believe were meant for use.

With all this said, we are still no closer to knowing the intended function of the ratchet.

Cheers
Chris

28th June 2017, 07:30 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	couple for illustration, the stag one is quite large (and noisy). ...and some ring pulls, they are mostly in the same family there is a saying that the sound of the navaja was the last thing many people heard. Attached Images

28th June 2017, 06:53 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Chris, my navajas are now +30 years out of my possession, but I do recall that two of them had very strong pivot points, the blade extension that provided the foundation for the ratchet teeth went back a good distance into the handle, these were loose joints when unlocked, but very solid joints when locked, there was absolutely nothing "tourist" or souvenir about them. The third one I had I seem to recall was a bit flimsy, not nearly the same quality as the two I mentioned with solid joints. I'm probably wrong, but I've never thought of navajas as smaller knives. If we can count any folder with a ratchet locking joint as a navaja I've actually had quite a few navajas, I think all were fairly recent --- say not more than 60 or 70 years old, and just about normal pocket knife size. Over the years I've traded most of these away for other pocket knives, I think I've still got one though.

28th June 2017, 09:43 AM	#4
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	A.G. Maisey: I cannot comment on your navajas without photos and some additional information. However, I have a representative collection of traditional 19th and 20th century navajas and none of the larger ones are light, in practical terms, or passably strong at the lock. I have handled many antique navajas over the years and have yet to see one with a blade over 9" that was practical.. This subject got a very through airing on this forum about 13 years ago and if you do a search you'll finds lots of good information. kronckew: Nice collection! Cheers Chris

28th June 2017, 12:39 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Thanks for your remarks Chris. Obviously I'm not looking for any comments on the navajas I had +30 years ago. They are no longer in my possession, and I have no idea where they might be, I was only throwing an offhand comment into the discussion. Yes, I've seen previous discussion on navajas, but I'm not really interested in pursuing the subject. I accept that you are expert in this subject, I admit that I am not, I can only comment in objective terms upon what I have seen.

28th June 2017, 01:27 PM	#6
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	A.G. Maisey: I apologize if I sounded a bit censorious and I do not for a moment disbelieve what you say. The original question by Richard was re the function of the ratchet, which originated in Spain quite early in the development of the navaja. In that context, we have to keep in mind the technical limitations that those cutlers were confronted by, and the role of the said ratchet in that historical setting. What I mean by my remarks was that the justification for your experience has to be sought in the make, typology and age of your knives. Modern knives can do all sorts of things that the antiques could not and have no bearing on the original intent behind the ratchet. As an aside, locking clasp knives of the Spanish pattern were made in many countries besides Spain, as afar as India and Africa, and many of these were way better than those of Hispanic make. The French in particular made very good `navajas' in the 19th century and these were eagerly imported into Spain in huge quantities. Cheers Chris

28th June 2017, 01:46 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The navajas I was talking about were all old ones, i recall one had a horn handle, and the horn was separating because of age and neglect. I had never thought of navajas as small folders until I read the remarks in this thread. As I have said, I have no expert knowledge of navajas, and very little interest, but I do have a background in custom knifemaking and I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for about 12 years. My opinion of these knives as a maker is that they needed an effective method of locking the blade in place, and when these things first appeared it is unlikely that good spring steel was a practical application. I would guess that the very early ancestors of navajas were like a lot of early folders, no backspring, no locking mechanism. A lot of Italian folders are made like this even today. The blade in a folder without a spring or locking mechanism can be made with an extension that comes down onto the back of the handle when the blade is open, and the hand holds the blade open, but this design is far from a secure lock. Probably when it became possible for small pieces of spring steel to be used the cheapest and most practical method was the notch on the back of the blade locking into a sprung catch. The ratchet would have followed this. That's the way I look at it as a maker:- a simple, cheap, mechanical fix. Totally practical for somebody working with simple technology and tools.