Interesting sword for comment

ham · 9th March 2006, 05:47 PM

RSWORD,

Image is little more than a tease I'm afraid, but for what we can see I think your analysis is a good one. Let's see some close detail photos.

Ham

RSWORD · 10th March 2006, 03:19 AM

Thanks for the feedback thusfar. To answer everyones question:

Jens- You were close. The blade is a little bit over 30" in length with a 2" long tang

Ingelred- While you do find executioner swords with rounded tip and sometimes of thin cross section, I do not believe this particular example to be such a weapon. There are no markings anywhere on the blade, at least, that are visible and decipherable

BluErf- I believe the short tang was the style of the day for this sword. I suspect it would have been adhered into the handle and the area just below the tang that you are seeing is where the "langet" of the guard blocked that area of blade for many a year, if not centuries, from any cleaning so what is left is a dark patination that gives some small clue as to how the hilt may have looked.

Ham- I am glad to see the overall profile at least peaks a bit of curiosity. Better detailed pictures will certainly help in providing more thought and I will be happy to provide those in a few days when I return home and look forward to additional comment at that time.

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 03:32 AM

Hi Rick,
This is an extremely interesting blade and certainly does appear to have some age to it. Without going further into the files here, I am just wondering if this might be a somewhat earlier blade for an Omani kattara. It seems they favored high flexibility in thier blades, which typically had centrally fullered form as well as the very rounded tip. Although typically the kattara blades were longer (about 36") possibly they had shorter examples as well?
I always thought it was interesting that the takouba typically has such a rounded tip, which suggests use of slashing cuts, and Omani influences are seen further into the Sahara in the guardless Manding sabres.

Just perspective, not discounting the possibility this may very well be an early Islamic blade possibly proto-kattara.

All the best,
Jim

RSWORD · 13th March 2006, 12:59 AM

Hi Jim. I appreciate the additional thoughts. I had thought about this blade possibly being an early Kattara blade but then I got to thinking about most examples I have seen and while they all had the thin blade in common and rounded tip, they did not have the width this blade has. Most I have seen had blades that were probably not over 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" wide at the hilt then tapering. Many say that the Kattara is based on early Arab blades and while I try not to be overy optimistic, I have a gut feeling this sword blade has some fairly significant age to it. As Ham mentioned, some more detailed pictures would be helpful. Here are 3 pictures, 2 of which are of the tang, and 1 of a strange small circle on the blade near the tang which is basically corroded over but perhaps was a marking at one time, maybe a kayi? If one uses the Japanese method of studying the patination on the tang to date a blade, then this tang exhibits the signs one would expect for a very old blade. It is always very hard to tell from the pictures things such as the patination color but perhaps some glues will be given from the shape of the tang.

RSWORD · 14th March 2006, 09:38 PM

I wanted to bump the thread since I have added pictures. Looking forward to additional thoughts. Ham? Jim? Thanks.

ariel · 14th March 2006, 11:17 PM

I know nothing about swordmaking.
Naive question: doesn't the tang look welded to the blade?

PUFF · 15th March 2006, 09:50 AM

The black stuff could be welding oxide or Black pitch which 's used for mounting.

13th March 2006, 12:59 AM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,089	Hi Jim. I appreciate the additional thoughts. I had thought about this blade possibly being an early Kattara blade but then I got to thinking about most examples I have seen and while they all had the thin blade in common and rounded tip, they did not have the width this blade has. Most I have seen had blades that were probably not over 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" wide at the hilt then tapering. Many say that the Kattara is based on early Arab blades and while I try not to be overy optimistic, I have a gut feeling this sword blade has some fairly significant age to it. As Ham mentioned, some more detailed pictures would be helpful. Here are 3 pictures, 2 of which are of the tang, and 1 of a strange small circle on the blade near the tang which is basically corroded over but perhaps was a marking at one time, maybe a kayi? If one uses the Japanese method of studying the patination on the tang to date a blade, then this tang exhibits the signs one would expect for a very old blade. It is always very hard to tell from the pictures things such as the patination color but perhaps some glues will be given from the shape of the tang. Attached Images

9th March 2006, 05:47 PM	#1
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	RSWORD, Image is little more than a tease I'm afraid, but for what we can see I think your analysis is a good one. Let's see some close detail photos. Ham

10th March 2006, 03:19 AM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,089	Thanks for the feedback thusfar. To answer everyones question: Jens- You were close. The blade is a little bit over 30" in length with a 2" long tang Ingelred- While you do find executioner swords with rounded tip and sometimes of thin cross section, I do not believe this particular example to be such a weapon. There are no markings anywhere on the blade, at least, that are visible and decipherable BluErf- I believe the short tang was the style of the day for this sword. I suspect it would have been adhered into the handle and the area just below the tang that you are seeing is where the "langet" of the guard blocked that area of blade for many a year, if not centuries, from any cleaning so what is left is a dark patination that gives some small clue as to how the hilt may have looked. Ham- I am glad to see the overall profile at least peaks a bit of curiosity. Better detailed pictures will certainly help in providing more thought and I will be happy to provide those in a few days when I return home and look forward to additional comment at that time.

10th March 2006, 03:32 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Hi Rick, This is an extremely interesting blade and certainly does appear to have some age to it. Without going further into the files here, I am just wondering if this might be a somewhat earlier blade for an Omani kattara. It seems they favored high flexibility in thier blades, which typically had centrally fullered form as well as the very rounded tip. Although typically the kattara blades were longer (about 36") possibly they had shorter examples as well? I always thought it was interesting that the takouba typically has such a rounded tip, which suggests use of slashing cuts, and Omani influences are seen further into the Sahara in the guardless Manding sabres. Just perspective, not discounting the possibility this may very well be an early Islamic blade possibly proto-kattara. All the best, Jim

14th March 2006, 09:38 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,089	I wanted to bump the thread since I have added pictures. Looking forward to additional thoughts. Ham? Jim? Thanks.

14th March 2006, 11:17 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I know nothing about swordmaking. Naive question: doesn't the tang look welded to the blade?

15th March 2006, 09:50 AM	#7
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The black stuff could be welding oxide or Black pitch which 's used for mounting.