New Moro Kris Sheaths and handles for Comments

[alexish]

I hereby attach pictures of the original Moro handles and sheaths that inspired my new Sarungs.

Can someone comment on whether these are traditional Moro designs and motifs? Or are these a modern artistic expression?

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by alexish

I hereby attach pictures of the original Moro handles and sheaths that inspired my new Sarungs.

Can someone comment on whether these are traditional Moro designs and motifs? Or are these a modern artistic expression?

Hello Alexish,

The first three photos show modern pieces but they are examples of what are currently the highest quality products from the town of Tugaya in Lanao del Sur, Mindanao. Tugaya is the traditional home of the best Maranao craftsmen so your examples (post #9) are authentic Moro pieces.

For your reference, attached is a photo of a modern kris and gunong that I purchased in Davao City last year. While not as nice as the examples you provided, you will notice some similarities in the details.

May I request for a close up of the kris blade in your first picture (post #1)? I think it looks interesting.

I hope this comment is helpful.

Fernando

[alexish]

Dear Fernando,

I hereby enclose a close-up of my blade.

Do you have any cooments on my new kris sheaths?

Hope you can comment on 2 areas:

1) Aesthetics of the entire sheath.

2) How close these sheaths conform to traditional Moro design, and whether they would be considered as Moro in the Philippines.

[kai]

Hello Alexis,

I hereby enclose a close-up of my blade.

Thanks - I'd like to see larger pics though, especially of the base of the blade!

I'm afraid there's something off here...


The other blades would certainly be of interest, too. TIA!

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

I guess they could be modern interpretations of old Moro forms into recent custom knife making.............

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by alexish

Dear Fernando,

I hereby enclose a close-up of my blade.

Do you have any cooments on my new kris sheaths?

Hope you can comment on 2 areas:

1) Aesthetics of the entire sheath.

2) How close these sheaths conform to traditional Moro design, and whether they would be considered as Moro in the Philippines.

Dear Alexish,

Thank you for posting the close-ups of the blade (in #13 and #21) . I think it's a fine blade and I won't mind having than in my collection.

Regarding the hilt and sheaths, I think that the workmanship is commendable however, the style does not conform to traditional Mindanao/Moro design. To the initiated, it would stand out as Indonesian style, as others have already pointed out. I agree with kai's observations in #15. These are not the work of Mindanao/Moro craftsmen.

Despite that, I still think they are nice and unique.

Kind regards,

Fernando

[kai]

Hello Fernando,

they are examples of what are currently the highest quality products from the town of Tugaya in Lanao del Sur, Mindanao. Tugaya is the traditional home of the best Maranao craftsmen so your examples (post #9) are authentic Moro pieces.

I beg to differ: While there certainly is still quite a bit of talent in Tugaya, I believe there has been a general shift from genuine, traditional Moro design to modern, artistic designs during the last, say, 50 years or so. Often enough the ukkil/okir and other motifs appear to be corrupted and, especially, the flow of lines is off. Moreover, in the 50 years before this, we saw a strong decline in Moro craftsmanship (and general decline of economy as well as effects of US/Japanese/Filipino influence throughout Bangsamoro).

I believe most modern pieces are a far cry compared to antique pieces, especially those from well into the 19th century and before...

Regards,
Kai

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Fernando,


I beg to differ: While there certainly is still quite a bit of talent in Tugaya, I believe there has been a general shift from genuine, traditional Moro design to modern, artistic designs during the last, say, 50 years or so. Often enough the ukkil/okir and other motifs appear to be corrupted and, especially, the flow of lines is off. Moreover, in the 50 years before this, we saw a strong decline in Moro craftsmanship (and general decline of economy as well as effects of US/Japanese/Filipino influence throughout Bangsamoro).

I believe most modern pieces are a far cry compared to antique pieces, especially those from well into the 19th century and before...

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

Point well taken. But allow me to clarify what I meant by my statement that what were shown are "authentic Moro pieces." The present artisans of Tugaya are descended, by family and tradition, from the artisans who made what are now genuine collectible Moro antiques. The items shown on post #9 are therefore made in the traditional center of Maranao crafts by Moro (Maranao) artisans. That was what I meant by "authentic Moro."

It is true that in terms of style and quality, they are not at par with "antique" (for emphasis) Moro pieces but what we are observing is the outcome of a continuing but evolving tradition. Modern/contemporary examples we have seen are therefore still authentic Moro but reflective of contemporary tastes and circumstances.

Sadly, the "highest quality products" today are not at par with the best of the past. This decline in quality is also reflective of present conditions in Moro land. In fact, right now, Marawi City where many products of the town of Tugaya are sold, is being bombarded by government troops because of an attempt by terrorist group to take over. I do not know if this has been reported in Western media but parts of Marawi now are reminiscent of Syria. It is already a poverty stricken region and the war will aggravate this.

I cancelled my visit to Tugaya last December because of a crossfire between terrorist groups and government forces. I was about to visit this month (June) but again had to cancel because the access point to the town (Marawi City) is a warzone and under martial law. I've never been to that part of the Philippines and I'm sure it won't be the same had I gone there a year earlier. I can only imagine how the craftsmen of Tugaya will be sadly affected by these events.

Anyway, I therefore agree with your observations and I hope I clarified what I meant. Thanks.

Kind regards,

Fernando

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

But allow me to clarify what I meant by my statement that what were shown are "authentic Moro pieces." The present artisans of Tugaya are descended, by family and tradition, from the artisans who made what are now genuine collectible Moro antiques. The items shown on post #9 are therefore made in the traditional center of Maranao crafts by Moro (Maranao) artisans. That was what I meant by "authentic Moro."

Just to be clear gentlemen, the work that is on display in Alexish's post #9 is described as "original Moro handles and sheaths that inspired my new Sarungs". I agree that this is probably modern Moro work. The work that we see in the original post however, the new pieces that Alexish commissioned used these modern Moro pieces as models for his new sheaths and hilts. To my eye these pieces look like cartoons of the original modern Moro work that was used to produce these new sheaths and hilts. I do not believe that these originally posted pieces were carved by Moro craftsman. This looks like more work out of the same area of Indonesia that produced Alexish's keris dress that he posted in the keris forum.

[Ian]

Alexish:

The pictures you posted in #9 and #10 of this thread were not present when I made my initial reply in #12. Perhaps they were still in the Moderation queue at the time I posted.

As I read your comments, the ones that you showed at the top of the post were based on/adapted from the hilts and scabbards in posts #9, #10. Just to further comment on what David said, the examples you show in #9, #10 are indeed recent Moro work, but the ones that you first posted are clearly not.

Ian.

[Battara]

Yup, I'm with you Ian........

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

Just to be clear gentlemen, the work that is on display in Alexish's post #9 is described as "original Moro handles and sheaths that inspired my new Sarungs". I agree that this is probably modern Moro work. The work that we see in the original post however, the new pieces that Alexish commissioned used these modern Moro pieces as models for his new sheaths and hilts. To my eye these pieces look like cartoons of the original modern Moro work that was used to produce these new sheaths and hilts. I do not believe that these originally posted pieces were carved by Moro craftsman. This looks like more work out of the same area of Indonesia that produced Alexish's keris dress that he posted in the keris forum.

I agree with your observations, David.

Kind regards,

Fernando

[alexish]

Dear Kai,

I enclose close-up of the Moro Kris Blade, as well as a picture of the original sheath.

Is the Kris Maranao, Maguidanao or Tausug?

[kai]

Dear Alexis, [or is it Alex/Alexish?]

I enclose close-up of the Moro Kris Blade, as well as a picture of the original sheath.

Thanks! Pics of the other 3 would certainly be of interest, too!

That's a genuine Moro kris, probably from around the turn of 19th/20th century or a tad earlier. The sogokan may be a bit stiff but otherwise is looks like a really decent example of approx. average quality - I'd love to see the laminations upon re-etching!

Is the Kris Maranao, Maguidanao or Tausug?

I'm inclined to believe that this is a Sulu blade; OTOH, this style is usually associated with Maranao origin and this would be one of the latest examples of this type I remember seeing from Sulu. The scabbard is from Mindanao though...


One last comment: The original fittings of this kris from post #21 seem pretty much intact. I'm sure with a little TLC they will look orders of magnitude more appropriate than any modern dress! And IMHO more beautiful (despite average materials and craftsmanship)!

Regards,
Kai

[alexish]

Kai, one more question.

Can you rank the 3 different Kris types - Sulu, Maranao and Maguidanao in terms of rarity?

[kai]

Hello Fernando,

Point well taken. But allow me to clarify what I meant by my statement that what were shown are "authentic Moro pieces." The present artisans of Tugaya are descended, by family and tradition, from the artisans who made what are now genuine collectible Moro antiques. The items shown on post #9 are therefore made in the traditional center of Maranao crafts by Moro (Maranao) artisans. That was what I meant by "authentic Moro."

It is true that in terms of style and quality, they are not at par with "antique" (for emphasis) Moro pieces but what we are observing is the outcome of a continuing but evolving tradition. Modern/contemporary examples we have seen are therefore still authentic Moro but reflective of contemporary tastes and circumstances.

I did understand your line of reasoning and apologize for failing to state that I respect this POV.

I believe we need to distinguish between evolving traditions and cultural degeneration though. Maybe the situation can be compared to the living keris tradition on Jawa: The modern generation of makers (or rather some of them) are able to craft high-quality pieces that conform to established cultural norms (pakem); however, this is a difficult task and minute deviations will result in missing the mark (and, thus, considerable loss of income). Many craftsmen seem to opt for an art approach which isn't bound by tradition: This allows for expressive free-style work that catches the eyes of customers, especially the huge majority who hasn't been initiated into the traditional aesthetics. If done well, it certainly is art; it probably isn't a regarded as a "real" keris by any traditionalist though. While one might argue that even pakem are subject to change (as they did in history), I do feel there is a considerable difference between any cultural development that takes place within a cultural setting of norms, traditions, and, especially, underlying symbolic code/language compared to a free-style approach which tosses out the meaning in favor of appealing to any uneducated eyes.

Coming back to Tugaya: Apparently much of the Moro language coded in kris and its fittings has been lost and/or is kept secret; I don't see any indications that the current artisans are trying to "speak" to a culturally educated/initiated audience. Most of the pieces are being sold to cultural outsiders, anyway.

BTW, gunong seem to continue being produced closer to traditions and some of the design elements even carry over into modern kris fittings...

In fact, right now, Marawi City where many products of the town of Tugaya are sold, is being bombarded by government troops because of an attempt by terrorist group to take over. I do not know if this has been reported in Western media but parts of Marawi now are reminiscent of Syria. It is already a poverty stricken region and the war will aggravate this.

I believe it was once shortly mentioned in TV news and possibly a couple of newspaper reports. We have to resort to dedicated online news and human rights NGOs for in-depth coverage.

Regards,
Kai

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by kai

I did understand your line of reasoning and apologize for failing to state that I respect this POV.

I believe we need to distinguish between evolving traditions and cultural degeneration though. Maybe the situation can be compared to the living keris tradition on Jawa: The modern generation of makers (or rather some of them) are able to craft high-quality pieces that conform to established cultural norms (pakem); however, this is a difficult task and minute deviations will result in missing the mark (and, thus, considerable loss of income). Many craftsmen seem to opt for an art approach which isn't bound by tradition: This allows for expressive free-style work that catches the eyes of customers, especially the huge majority who hasn't been initiated into the traditional aesthetics. If done well, it certainly is art; it probably isn't a regarded as a "real" keris by any traditionalist though. While one might argue that even pakem are subject to change (as they did in history), I do feel there is a considerable difference between any cultural development that takes place within a cultural setting of norms, traditions, and, especially, underlying symbolic code/language compared to a free-style approach which tosses out the meaning in favor of appealing to any uneducated eyes.

Coming back to Tugaya: Apparently much of the Moro language coded in kris and its fittings has been lost and/or is kept secret; I don't see any indications that the current artisans are trying to "speak" to a culturally educated/initiated audience. Most of the pieces are being sold to cultural outsiders, anyway.

BTW, gunong seem to continue being produced closer to traditions and some of the design elements even carry over into modern kris fittings...

Hello Kai,

Thank you for the acknowledgement. I also respect your point of view.

I've been around shops in Metro Manila and Davao where I've seen some newly made Mindanao krises with new stylistic elements, but which also conform to traditional standards. Recently, I held a brand new kris with a separate gangya (not just a line) which indicated to me that manufacturers are now aware of some "signs" collectors are looking for. While the seasoned collector would be able to tell they are merely aged to look antique (and a few other things), these swords are nonetheless really beautiful and would appeal to a niche market.

In terms of function, they are equally lethal and may even better many of the antique krises I have personally handled. As display items, these new swords look nicer. In many ways, the modern products are superior to the antiques.

However, as a weapon, the kris has become obsolete. I therefore see the production of krises these days as akin to manufacturing sophisticated typewriters in the age of laptops and personal computers. It has its niche market but has become mainly, a novelty item. I think this is the reason why manufacturers have to resort to "creative" efforts to sell their products but it is something they have to do to keep their livelihood and traditions going.

I'm not sure if I made sense. But I do agree that we can also look at this as a form of "cultural degeneration." Anyway, I don't want to divert the discussion away from Alexish' queries.

Kind regards,

Fernando

[F. de Luzon]

Hi Alexish,

I also agree with David, Battara and Ian.

Best,

Fernando

[kai]

Originally Posted by alexish

I hereby attach pictures of the original Moro handles and sheaths that inspired my new Sarungs.

Can someone comment on whether these are traditional Moro designs and motifs? Or are these a modern artistic expression?

Thanks, I now see where the results are coming from.

None of your examples is traditional, old Moro style - the shapes are rather flowery and the ukkil/okir motifs tend to be off.

When you give these examples to the Indonesian carvers, they don't understand the Moro motifs and add another layer of confusion including even more flowery artistic expression. It is possible to see what example they tried to emulate but the result is just way off. IMNSHO that is...

Regards,
Kai