Koummya for comment

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Guys,

Well, normaly I don't fight to push my ideas. I think that's a waste of time (especally because some members are a bit stuborn).
Nevertheless here we have a silver proof mark. You have hundred of examples in North Africa from Morocco to Algeria... On guns too...
For the koummya look at the big hilted koummya called khanjer...

Kubur

Kubur, it would seem this is more than an idea, and presenting support as you have is not a fight, but constructive effort for a correct resolution to a matter.
As I have little particular knowledge on reading Islamic dates or hallmarks, I would like to know, when did the convention of hallmarks (proof) begin in the Maghreb? The only material I could find concerned Egypt, where it was describing the practice since 1916.
Apparently the standard grades are 600, 800, and 900 (with 925 regarded as Sterling).
The data I read says that the Arabic numerals/letters are written left to right in the case of Egypt, but only one zero is used, thus 800 would read as 80.
It seems that the 800 denominator is seen most commonly as found on many commercial or tourist/souk items.

There is also the dilemma of how metal which is amalgamated from various melted down sources and varying purity grades is measured and stamped with such proof marks.

Are proof marks (hallmarks) which gauge silver purity used differently in the Maghreb (or Morocco in particular) , than from Egypt?

It does seem that hallmarks are often filtered into the field of motif, so that seems somewhat compelling here. However, if the numbers seen do not comply with standard measures, then perhaps they might be a date. It is clear this is not an early mounting, certainly not 18th century, but if read as Oliver has described, might be that significant date I have noted.

The events I have suggested were most certainly controversial, so would it be plausible that the date recognizing them might be subtly imbued in this manner?

[Oliver Pinchot]

If a Hijri date terminates in a zero, it is typically left off.

[motan]

Thanks Oliver. Always good to learn something. So, most probably it is a date as you mentioned -1911/2- and not a silver mark. This date conforms better with the style. Wooden hilt, 1911, but still above avarage and beatiful piece ..

[Oliver Pinchot]

Actually, it's part of the silver mark

[motan]

Hmmm. this is not going well for me. It is not the first mistake I have made in this thread. I can see the whole silver mark now. The marks in this thread are all very different and there appears to be little standartization. Can you actually interpret them?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by motan

Hmmm. this is not going well for me. It is not the first mistake I have made in this thread. I can see the whole silver mark now. The marks in this thread are all very different and there appears to be little standartization. Can you actually interpret them?

Easy,some objects, the pistol and the powder flask are from Algeria with a different system from Morocco... Algeria was controlled by the Ottomans. Morocco has a different system...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by motan

Hmmm. this is not going well for me. It is not the first mistake I have made in this thread. I can see the whole silver mark now. The marks in this thread are all very different and there appears to be little standartization. Can you actually interpret them?

Motan, I don't think you've made any mistakes, but at least you have certain knowledge on these and have posed tangible questions. It would appear my speculations however,were indeed a mistake, and not relevant to the identification of the marking here, which remains unclear. Like you, I'd like to learn more on the koummya, whether there are regional or period forms and how to identify them, but more so, the example of the OP.

As you note, there is clearly disparity in the markings but unless I have missed something, there is still no finite answer to the markings on the example originally posted. Can they be interpreted?
Is this a date? or a combination of silver proof and date (as in some hallmarks as suggested by 1911/12)?
If a proof....is Morocco different than others such as I mentioned with Egypt , who uses 600,800,900?

[Tatyana Dianova]

As already noted, the Koumiya of the topic starter has a silver mark.
It is a silver mark from Marrakech from the 1918. Since the scabbard is oval, the visible mark is incomplete, the date should be 1337 with Arabic writing.
Several towns in Morocco has used each its own silver marks which changed over the time. In the reference book I have used (Bijoux du Maroc by Marie-Rose Rabate) there are several pages with the Moroccan silver marks.