Viking Norse Keris for comment

David · 8th June 2017, 07:22 AM

Alexish, if i am not mistaken the image you have posted of the horse head hilt is mine. This is a relatively recent hilt that was probably carved only about 25 years ago. Madurese carvings are known for incorporating numerous European motifs introduced by the Dutch during centuries of colonialism. But the winged horse, called Si Mega, is the regional emblem of Sumenep and has been a part of their iconography for some time and probably is not attitude to the close relationship between the Madurese and the Dutch. Si Mega is mentioned in the legend of Joko Tolè. While journeying to Majapahit to assist his stepfather named Empu Kelleng, Joko Tolè met with his uncle, Adirasa, who gave him the flying horse Si Mega and a whip, both of which had been entrusted to him by Adipoday.
The horse in this hilt is a stylized version of Si Mega.

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2017, 08:02 AM

Alexis, the wrongko in post 13 is also recent, it probably post dates 1980, it certainly does not pre-date WWII.

There were some beautiful, and very inventive wrongkos produced in Madura, but I have never seen a ladrangan with this sort of spiral ornamentation that went back beyond the late 1970's.I've certainly never seen one with provenance that placed it any earlier than last quarter 20th century.

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2017, 08:14 AM

David, re your post #16.

Nope, I got everything that Alexis wrote, and I understand what he is saying.

What I wrote was this:-

"-- but exactly similar forms can be found in markets in Indonesia. ---"

"similar" does not mean "the same"

The style, execution, material everything except minor motif variation is the same as can be found in multitudes of these ornamental dress forms. They proliferate in souvenir shops and are very well known, and considering the detail in the carving not at all expensive.

Everybody knows the famous (notorious?) Balinese "tourist" keris executed in ebony or fake ebony and often bearing very refined, skilfully executed carving. Well, when these died out in Bali, their place was taken by the type of thing that Alexis is showing us.

I'm not talking motif detail, I'm talking about the complete object.

David · 8th June 2017, 02:48 PM

Thanks for clearing up my confusion Alan. I was thrown by your phrase "exactly similar" and thought you were referring to the motifs as well as the over all dress forms.

A. G. Maisey · 9th June 2017, 01:00 AM

Understood.

Maybe I should not have used "exactly", because even though exactly similar, the motif difference does not make them exactly the same. I'll try to be a bit more careful in future.

alexish · 19th April 2018, 11:21 AM

Dear collectors,

my sincerest apologies for re-opening this new thread on an old subject. For the sake of completeness, I just feel compelled to post pictures of my newly commissioned piece. Of course, it will be criticized for being a modern fantasy piece along the lines of the fantasy barbarian swords of the Kult of Athena. But, the point I want to make is how easily medieval Norse motifs can easily be mistaken as local Indonesian to the untrained eye, even by native Indonesians themselves. I have actually shown pictures of this new 'Norse' sarung to some local Indonesian collectors, and many of them seem to think of it as a variant of Madurese-style sarung. I think because the Norse and various Indonesian cultures are sea-faring, it is thus not surprising that there are many similarities in carved motifs of these cultures on opposite ends of the world.

alexish · 19th April 2018, 11:30 AM

There is a popular TV series on History Channel 'Vikings'. Although not 100% historically accurate, I believe that the producers have at least made some attempt to keep a degree of authenticity to the costumes and prop, for example, the absence of horned helmets, as in popular culture. I therefore believe that the dragonhead prop of the protangonist's (Ragnar Lothbrok) Viking ship is actually inspired by genuine Norse motifs, even though it was never based on an actual archeological artifact. Hence, I utilized this as a model for my hilt, rather than genuine archeological artifacts such as the Oseberg ship dragonhead (which shape incidentally was not suited for a keris hilt).

David · 19th April 2018, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexish

Dear collectors,

my sincerest apologies for re-opening this new thread on an old subject. For the sake of completeness, I just feel compelled to post pictures of my newly commissioned piece. Of course, it will be criticized for being a modern fantasy piece along the lines of the fantasy barbarian swords of the Kult of Athena. But, the point I want to make is how easily medieval Norse motifs can easily be mistaken as local Indonesian to the untrained eye, even by native Indonesians themselves. I have actually shown pictures of this new 'Norse' sarung to some local Indonesian collectors, and many of them seem to think of it as a variant of Madurese-style sarung. I think because the Norse and various Indonesian cultures are sea-faring, it is thus not surprising that there are many similarities in carved motifs of these cultures on opposite ends of the world.

<SIGH> I'm sorry you have felt so "compelled" Alexis. I don't know how many times and how many ways i need to tell you that this is not what we do here. You will not be told again.
I am also not surprised that you have met Indonesians who believe this is a variant Madurese style. There are Americans (far too many in fact) that also know little of their past culture and this country is less than 250 years old. Despite what we as keris collectors know on the subject, keris is no longer in the forefront of the Indonesian mindset. Ignorant and uninformed people live in all cultures. That you have confused a few Indonesians with this is not at all surprising, but it validates nothing. But i believe it is our responsibility to keep keris culture alive and increase the wealth and knowledge of this wonderful cultural icon, not to confuse the issue and pollute the field with nonsensical cultural appropriations.
This thread is closed.

19th April 2018, 11:21 AM	#6
alexish Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 127	New keris in Madura style with Norse motifs Dear collectors, my sincerest apologies for re-opening this new thread on an old subject. For the sake of completeness, I just feel compelled to post pictures of my newly commissioned piece. Of course, it will be criticized for being a modern fantasy piece along the lines of the fantasy barbarian swords of the Kult of Athena. But, the point I want to make is how easily medieval Norse motifs can easily be mistaken as local Indonesian to the untrained eye, even by native Indonesians themselves. I have actually shown pictures of this new 'Norse' sarung to some local Indonesian collectors, and many of them seem to think of it as a variant of Madurese-style sarung. I think because the Norse and various Indonesian cultures are sea-faring, it is thus not surprising that there are many similarities in carved motifs of these cultures on opposite ends of the world. Last edited by alexish; 19th April 2018 at 01:56 PM.

19th April 2018, 11:30 AM	#7
alexish Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 127	The hilt inspired by History channel's Dragonhead There is a popular TV series on History Channel 'Vikings'. Although not 100% historically accurate, I believe that the producers have at least made some attempt to keep a degree of authenticity to the costumes and prop, for example, the absence of horned helmets, as in popular culture. I therefore believe that the dragonhead prop of the protangonist's (Ragnar Lothbrok) Viking ship is actually inspired by genuine Norse motifs, even though it was never based on an actual archeological artifact. Hence, I utilized this as a model for my hilt, rather than genuine archeological artifacts such as the Oseberg ship dragonhead (which shape incidentally was not suited for a keris hilt). Attached Images Last edited by alexish; 19th April 2018 at 01:51 PM.

8th June 2017, 07:22 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,051	Alexish, if i am not mistaken the image you have posted of the horse head hilt is mine. This is a relatively recent hilt that was probably carved only about 25 years ago. Madurese carvings are known for incorporating numerous European motifs introduced by the Dutch during centuries of colonialism. But the winged horse, called Si Mega, is the regional emblem of Sumenep and has been a part of their iconography for some time and probably is not attitude to the close relationship between the Madurese and the Dutch. Si Mega is mentioned in the legend of Joko Tolè. While journeying to Majapahit to assist his stepfather named Empu Kelleng, Joko Tolè met with his uncle, Adirasa, who gave him the flying horse Si Mega and a whip, both of which had been entrusted to him by Adipoday. The horse in this hilt is a stylized version of Si Mega. Attached Images

8th June 2017, 08:02 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,754	Alexis, the wrongko in post 13 is also recent, it probably post dates 1980, it certainly does not pre-date WWII. There were some beautiful, and very inventive wrongkos produced in Madura, but I have never seen a ladrangan with this sort of spiral ornamentation that went back beyond the late 1970's.I've certainly never seen one with provenance that placed it any earlier than last quarter 20th century.

8th June 2017, 08:14 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,754	David, re your post #16. Nope, I got everything that Alexis wrote, and I understand what he is saying. What I wrote was this:- "-- but exactly similar forms can be found in markets in Indonesia. ---" "similar" does not mean "the same" The style, execution, material everything except minor motif variation is the same as can be found in multitudes of these ornamental dress forms. They proliferate in souvenir shops and are very well known, and considering the detail in the carving not at all expensive. Everybody knows the famous (notorious?) Balinese "tourist" keris executed in ebony or fake ebony and often bearing very refined, skilfully executed carving. Well, when these died out in Bali, their place was taken by the type of thing that Alexis is showing us. I'm not talking motif detail, I'm talking about the complete object.

8th June 2017, 02:48 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,051	Thanks for clearing up my confusion Alan. I was thrown by your phrase "exactly similar" and thought you were referring to the motifs as well as the over all dress forms.

9th June 2017, 01:00 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,754	Understood. Maybe I should not have used "exactly", because even though exactly similar, the motif difference does not make them exactly the same. I'll try to be a bit more careful in future.