Viking Norse Keris for comment

David · 7th June 2017, 03:50 AM

Perhaps you can share with us your thinking here Alex. I thought at first perhaps you were of Norse descent (which may still be true) however your location seems to be in Hong Kong. We all collect keris for various reasons. Mine, at least in part, is a deep interest the cultures of Indonesia and a desire to study and preserve this cultures so dressing a blade like this is pretty antithetical to my own thinking on the subject. Do you have a particular fascination with Viking culture or see particular similarities between these cultures?

alexish · 7th June 2017, 04:00 AM

I was inspired to commission a keris sarung based on Viking Norse design, because I see such strong parallels between the Vikings and the sea-faring cultures of the Malay Archipelago such as the Bugis and the Moros, which all have piracy traditions. Additionally, Bugis adventurers founded various new kingdoms in other parts of the Malay World such as Selangor in Malaysia. This is similiar to Viking adventurers who founded the duchy of Normandy, that led to the Norman conquest of England.

alexish · 7th June 2017, 06:07 PM

Can someone comment on the Dhapur and locality of the blade. I know for sure that the blade is Javanese, because I bought it from a dealer in Java. But which part of Java is it likely from - Solo, Yogya, Cirebon? Also, what is the name of the Dhapur, and what mystical properties is the Dhapur associated with?

David · 7th June 2017, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexish

Can someone comment on the Dhapur and locality of the blade. I know for sure that the blade is Javanese, because I bought it from a dealer in Java. But which part of Java is it likely from - Solo, Yogya, Cirebon? Also, what is the name of the Dhapur, and what mystical properties is the Dhapur associated with?

Well Alexish, this is a contemporary creation and frankly it includes some features i have not encountered on keris before. Dhapur is a designation of specific pakem that applies to specific kratons (palaces) from various kingdoms such as you have mentioned so given the artistic license of this particular piece i am not sure exactly what dhapur name would apply.
Buying a keris in Jawa is no guarantee that the blade was actually made in Jawa, though it is possible. There are also centers of modern keris production of these forms in parts of Madura as well that could possibly produce a blade like this. Someone here may be better at recognizing these modern works stylistically and have a more definite answer for you as to what area this one comes.
Mystical properties are more usually connected to pamor pattern than with dhapur, though that can figure in as well. From the photos you display your keris seems to be without pamor (kelengan) so i can't offer much information there. However, i will say that modern keris from these keris making centers in Jawa and Madura tend more towards the artistic presentation of keris, not the mystical/magicak form. The vast majority of modern keris makers are not empus who still know the secret rites and rituals necessary to make mystically empowered blades. Perhaps others will have a different opinion.

Lee · 7th June 2017, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexish

... I see such strong parallels between the Vikings and the sea-faring cultures of the Malay Archipelago such as the Bugis and the Moros, which all have piracy traditions.

Yes, I can see the parallels. It brought back fond memories of this thread concerning artifacts from a sea captain involved in a pirate attack in the Sulu archipelago in the late nineteenth century. Just like the Vikings, both the Moros and their Sulu neighbors employed pattern-welded spears and swords (I'll show a nice pattern-welded kris later when I can get the photos done). Also, I do like your Viking themed keris.

David · 7th June 2017, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Yes, I can see the parallels. It brought back fond memories of this thread concerning artifacts from a sea captain involved in a pirate attack in the Sulu archipelago in the late nineteenth century. Just like the Vikings, both the Moros and their Sulu neighbors employed pattern-welded spears and swords (I'll show a nice pattern-welded kris later when I can get the photos done). Also, I do like your Viking themed keris.

Yes Lee, that was a very cool thread. Of course, our focus here is Indonesian keris, not it's Moro cousin.

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2017, 01:31 AM

I agree with David's comments, and will add a little more.

This keris blade is post 1980 production, overall style is East Javanese, workmanship is the Sumenep Madura school, but it may have been made somewhere else in East Jawa, technically, Madura is a part of East Jawa.

The wrongko and hilt are workmanship attributable to the Sumenep school, but probably obtained through Pasar Turi in Surabaya.

This is a completely modern keris that is absolutely in line with the approach that treats the keris as a vehicle for craft/art expression. Yes, the interpretation of the carving motifs of the dress could be taken as Scandinavian, but exactly similar forms can be found in markets in Indonesia. There is nothing traditional about this keris either as a societal indicator or in a talismanic sense.

alexish · 8th June 2017, 03:03 AM

Thanks David and Alan for your comments. I agree that this keris can easily pass off as a native Indonesian, because there are similiar native Madurese motifs. I attach some pictures as examples. I have a question. Does anyone know about horse-head keris handles from Madura. Does this have any historical, cultural or talismanic significance? Or is it a purely modern artistic expression?

Rick · 8th June 2017, 04:17 AM

Could you please repost your comment that is in moderation with the correct picture please.

David · 8th June 2017, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, the interpretation of the carving motifs of the dress could be taken as Scandinavian, but exactly similar forms can be found in markets in Indonesia.

Alan, i believe you may have missed where Alexish stated that the design of this dress was specifically commissioned by him using viking motifs which he provided to the carver. So i'm not convinced we would encounter exactly similar forms in the common Indonesian market. I am still at odds with the reasons for this cultural mixed, but to each their own i suppose. Frankly, beyond the common use of pattern welding and the common necessity for travel by sea i don't think that one would really find much commonality between Norse culture and that of any of the Indonesian kingdoms.

David · 8th June 2017, 07:22 AM

Alexish, if i am not mistaken the image you have posted of the horse head hilt is mine. This is a relatively recent hilt that was probably carved only about 25 years ago. Madurese carvings are known for incorporating numerous European motifs introduced by the Dutch during centuries of colonialism. But the winged horse, called Si Mega, is the regional emblem of Sumenep and has been a part of their iconography for some time and probably is not attitude to the close relationship between the Madurese and the Dutch. Si Mega is mentioned in the legend of Joko Tolè. While journeying to Majapahit to assist his stepfather named Empu Kelleng, Joko Tolè met with his uncle, Adirasa, who gave him the flying horse Si Mega and a whip, both of which had been entrusted to him by Adipoday.
The horse in this hilt is a stylized version of Si Mega.

7th June 2017, 04:00 AM	#2
alexish Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 127	Inspiration for Viking Norse Keris I was inspired to commission a keris sarung based on Viking Norse design, because I see such strong parallels between the Vikings and the sea-faring cultures of the Malay Archipelago such as the Bugis and the Moros, which all have piracy traditions. Additionally, Bugis adventurers founded various new kingdoms in other parts of the Malay World such as Selangor in Malaysia. This is similiar to Viking adventurers who founded the duchy of Normandy, that led to the Norman conquest of England.

7th June 2017, 06:07 PM	#3
alexish Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 127	Dhapur and locality of the blade? Can someone comment on the Dhapur and locality of the blade. I know for sure that the blade is Javanese, because I bought it from a dealer in Java. But which part of Java is it likely from - Solo, Yogya, Cirebon? Also, what is the name of the Dhapur, and what mystical properties is the Dhapur associated with? Attached Images

8th June 2017, 03:03 AM	#8
alexish Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 127	Native Madurese designs Thanks David and Alan for your comments. I agree that this keris can easily pass off as a native Indonesian, because there are similiar native Madurese motifs. I attach some pictures as examples. I have a question. Does anyone know about horse-head keris handles from Madura. Does this have any historical, cultural or talismanic significance? Or is it a purely modern artistic expression? Attached Images

8th June 2017, 04:17 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Alexish Could you please repost your comment that is in moderation with the correct picture please.

8th June 2017, 07:22 AM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Alexish, if i am not mistaken the image you have posted of the horse head hilt is mine. This is a relatively recent hilt that was probably carved only about 25 years ago. Madurese carvings are known for incorporating numerous European motifs introduced by the Dutch during centuries of colonialism. But the winged horse, called Si Mega, is the regional emblem of Sumenep and has been a part of their iconography for some time and probably is not attitude to the close relationship between the Madurese and the Dutch. Si Mega is mentioned in the legend of Joko Tolè. While journeying to Majapahit to assist his stepfather named Empu Kelleng, Joko Tolè met with his uncle, Adirasa, who gave him the flying horse Si Mega and a whip, both of which had been entrusted to him by Adipoday. The horse in this hilt is a stylized version of Si Mega. Attached Images

7th June 2017, 03:50 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Perhaps you can share with us your thinking here Alex. I thought at first perhaps you were of Norse descent (which may still be true) however your location seems to be in Hong Kong. We all collect keris for various reasons. Mine, at least in part, is a deep interest the cultures of Indonesia and a desire to study and preserve this cultures so dressing a blade like this is pretty antithetical to my own thinking on the subject. Do you have a particular fascination with Viking culture or see particular similarities between these cultures?

8th June 2017, 01:31 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I agree with David's comments, and will add a little more. This keris blade is post 1980 production, overall style is East Javanese, workmanship is the Sumenep Madura school, but it may have been made somewhere else in East Jawa, technically, Madura is a part of East Jawa. The wrongko and hilt are workmanship attributable to the Sumenep school, but probably obtained through Pasar Turi in Surabaya. This is a completely modern keris that is absolutely in line with the approach that treats the keris as a vehicle for craft/art expression. Yes, the interpretation of the carving motifs of the dress could be taken as Scandinavian, but exactly similar forms can be found in markets in Indonesia. There is nothing traditional about this keris either as a societal indicator or in a talismanic sense.