Old Tajong or Coteng???

[VVV]

Hi BlueErf,

Thanks for your comments.
I agree with your way to differ the Coteng from the Tajong but after reading Spirit of Wood I am confused. Do you have the book?
The Tajong 1 in their evolution of Hulu Tajong is just like a Coteng, even called Tajong 1 Hulu Coteng, but still is described as a Tajong.
On the blade I also agree but can assure you that I at least haven't fiddled with it.
It fits perfect in the scabbard so if some exchage has been done maybe it's a change of only the hilt?
But in this interesting thread I noticed a Coteng (DA Henkel's) that have a similar blade as mine?
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001218.html

So maybe it could be original?

Michael

[VVV]

I have now been able to check the source of the link that Alam Shah shared

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...ran_pekaka.htm

It's seems to my eyes as if the article from Cédric Le Dauphin is using the pictures from the old web site of D A Henkel on Peninsular Keris as illustration on the evolution of the Tajong?
BUT one hilt is then mislabeled and that's the one resembling mine which is dated 17th C at DA Henkel's site and 18th C in the article of Le Dauphin?
In the book Spirit of Wood it's dated pre 18th C.
I presume the change of dates is based on C Le Dauphin's own research and that he disagrees with the conclusions of D A Henkel, Nik Rashidin Nik Hussein as well as the authors of the book?
The article of Le Dauphin is very well written and impressive so I guess he has his reasons for changing the dating?

Michael

[PUFF]

This construction 's not very famous. That 's why you gouy can't find it from documents published in the west.
According to an kris expert this piece might be "Sonkhla-Nakorn(SriDhamMaRaj)" (northern Malaya) design. The hilt is "streight beak Coteng". This construct mostly held by buddhist people in the class of artist or shaman medic.

Here 's a similar piece with the same construct...



Another piece...

[nechesh]

Sorry Puff, but i just don't see it. The only similarities here are in the hilts and even those have many subtle differences. The blades are very different dapurs and the sheaths are also very different styles and also lacks the bands. Is the hilt the only thing that determines the identity of this keris as coteng? How can you ID this keris as Sonkla-Nakor when it is so structurally different from the examples you present?

[PUFF]

I agree with you that the depurs are different and the sheaths are totally different. So, I just ID from its Coteng hilt which is quite unique for Kris from Songkhla and northern malaya provinces.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by VVV

Hi BlueErf,

Thanks for your comments.
I agree with your way to differ the Coteng from the Tajong but after reading Spirit of Wood I am confused. Do you have the book?
The Tajong 1 in their evolution of Hulu Tajong is just like a Coteng, even called Tajong 1 Hulu Coteng, but still is described as a Tajong.
On the blade I also agree but can assure you that I at least haven't fiddled with it.
It fits perfect in the scabbard so if some exchage has been done maybe it's a change of only the hilt?
But in this interesting thread I noticed a Coteng (DA Henkel's) that have a similar blade as mine?
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001218.html

So maybe it could be original?

Michael

Hi Michael,

Yes I have the spirit of wood book. The tajong and coteng are very closely related. It is almost certain that they arose from the same original form, but for some reason evolved differently. The coteng form would seem to be the more primitive form. I think it really depends on how one wants to classify such hilts. I know there are people who consider cotengs a form of tajong. Well, I'd just leave it as 'they're closely related'. I can't say much about the dating except that there's a lot of guess-work and gut feel in those.

Blade-wise, the old cotengs do not have pandai saras blades. Dave's blade is not a pandai saras. Its a form of bahari blade. Note that it has no kembang kacang, and does not have the diamond profile that extends through the ganja. And yes, bahari is the other form of blade found in cotengs.

Your sheath form is the same as Paul's example (the ivory hilted one with the broken nose). Your sheath has suffered some damage to the dauns (the 'leaves' at both end to the sheath), but it is still in quite good condition.

The cotengs are found in the Songkhla/Singora area in present day southern Thailand. They are generally found in areas North of where Tajongs would be found. Crudely speaking, North yields more cotengs, South yields more tajongs. It's not a very big area, hence making cotengs one of the rarest keris forms around. There are quite a fair bit of variation in blade and sheath forms that are not properly documented, so we are quite 'in the dark'. The amount of variations almost suggest that each district may have a slightly different form of the keris.

And finally, yes, your coteng could be original. At any rate, please maintain it well for posterity! Remember to use wood oil (with oil like "Old English") a few times a year, and clean the blade with light neutral oil (wipe the blade dry of the oil). Sorry for nagging, but you are in possession of a very rare specimen (even amongst the rare cotengs).

[BluErf]

Thanks to PUFF for posting the coteng pics! I appreciate that! Any more pics of those examples please (especially the 2nd one)?

[VVV]

Thanks all for your comments and posting of examples.
Be assured BluErf, I will take good care of this Keris.
And thanks also for explaining more about the different blade forms.

How different was the old cultural traditions in the neighbouring states of Songkhla/Singora and Pattani?

Michael

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by VVV

How different was the old cultural traditions in the neighbouring states of Songkhla/Singora and Pattani?

Now, this sounds like a PhD thesis topic. I'm afraid this is very much beyond me.

Pattani was an old Malay kingdom that was the successor to the legendary Langkasuka kingdom of which not much is known. The Langkasuka kingdom came to being in the early part of the first millennium, and was constantly subject to invasions from other powers such as the Sri Vijaya empire from Sumatra, the Chola empire from India, and later on, Siam. Singora is the old name for Songkhla, I believe, and it exists on the northern boundaries of the Pattani empire. It probably was not under direct rule of Pattani, but like many other smaller states then, sweared allegiance and fealty under the Mandala system of rule. The people living in the areas of Singora and Pattani thus have very close cultural ties.

If we look at the kerises from the 2 regions, those coming from the Pattani "heartlands" would seem to be more 'homogenous', of a readily identifiable class and type, with very high quality works available. The kerises from Songkhla/Singora tend to be more of a hodge-podge mix, possibly imported from various regions. the number of finer kerises from this region would seem to be a lot harder to find. This could of course be due to the relative rarity of the kerises from that region in the first place. But I would hazard that the Pattani "heartland" would be some sort of a 'technological and cultural centre' which creates the finest kerises, and the technology and styles are 'exported' to the fringe areas such as Songkhla/Singora. What applies to the kerises could have applied to other cultural traditions, I think.

[VVV]

Thanks BluErf for sharing this info!
20% of your PhD at the VVV Viking University is completed and approved with this excellent summary. Look forward to the rest of your thesis on Coteng and Tajong Keris...

Michael

[Alam Shah]

Hi all, An interesting read would be,

History of The Malay Kingdom of Patani, by Ibrahim Syukri.
(translated by: Conner Bailey and John N. Miksic)
Ohio University, Monographs in International Studies
Southeast Asia Series, No. 68
ISBN: 0-89680-123-3

No Coteng or Tajong form, but will be of particular interest to those seeking to understand the persistence of conflict in southern Thailand.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks BluErf for sharing this info!
20% of your PhD at the VVV Viking University is completed and approved with this excellent summary. Look forward to the rest of your thesis on Coteng and Tajong Keris...

Michael

lol.