Old Tajung Keris(es?)

kai · 30th May 2017, 12:13 AM

Hello Rasdan,

Thanks, that helps!

Quote:

teming/temi is a variation of pronounciation spoken by East Coast Malaysian. The correct word in standardised Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia is Temin. Which means some sort of a metal sleeve to reinforce hilts or spear shafts.

So basically we can just translate this into English as ferrule since it has no specialized connotations and concentrates on function rather than stylistic details.

Regards,
Kai

rasdan · 30th May 2017, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Rasdan,

Thanks, that helps!

So basically we can just translate this into English as ferrule since it has no specialized connotations and concentrates on function rather than stylistic details.

Regards,
Kai

You're welcome Kai. Yes, the direct translation is ferrule.

Mickey the Finn · 19th February 2020, 10:55 AM

@ rasdan :This is quite interesting, and enlightening. Outside and inside calipers. I adjusted a couple to more secure positions upon the wood screws on which they hung on the wall at work just this morning. My apologies for "thread necromancy" and, perhaps, irrelevant commentary. I was following a train of thought during the course of research, and it led me here.
Google Translator leads me to believe that "angkup randu" means something like "operator's manual for tweezers" or "hand-operated tweezers". Please don't feel obligated to reply. I'm sure the matter will sort itself out in time.

A. G. Maisey · 19th February 2020, 11:50 AM

Mickey, in Indonesian, Javanese, Old Javanese "randu" means kapok tree.

In Modern Malay, Indonesian "angkup" means tweezers, pliers.

In Modern Javanese "angkup randu" could be understood as "unopened bud of the kapok tree" > "angkup" in Javanese is an unopened bud.

I do not know what "randu" means in Modern Malay, but I have a very foggy memory that in Classical Malay it is verb that means some sort of arm action.

David · 19th February 2020, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn

Google Translator leads me to believe that "angkup randu" means something like "operator's manual for tweezers" or "hand-operated tweezers". Please don't feel obligated to reply. I'm sure the matter will sort itself out in time.

Well, i don't mean to keep this resurrected thread alive for long (though it is nice to see these tajong once again

), but i will just say that Google Translator knows jack about Malay based languages. You will find the most ridiculous translation or words and phrases almost every time. It is near useless for understanding Bahasa Indonesian, Javanese or Malay.
Carry on!

A. G. Maisey · 19th February 2020, 08:56 PM

I think most keris people would know this,its pretty basic knowledge, but maybe some of the new boys might not, so it is worth mentioning I guess.

There is a type of Solo mendak that is named "angkup randu" because it carries the angkup randu motif, which is pretty prevalent in Central Javanese ornamentation, and is also one of the common batik motifs.

This motif is a representation of the kapok tree bud.

A. G. Maisey · 19th February 2020, 09:18 PM

The Malay meaning of "randu" was troubling me, so I looked it up in Wilkinson, published 1901, here is the dictionary entry:-

Randu. I. The action of the arm in stirring
up water or anything, when the arm is thrust
into water and worked round and round so as
to set the water in rapid motion. Randukan:
to work up or mix anything by working the
arm round and round in it; Sej, Mai., 122.

Mickey the Finn · 1st March 2020, 12:05 PM

I often take things for granted; the most recent pertinent instance may have been assuming that the majority of readers of this forum will automatically associate "angkup randu" with a specific design of mendak. I don't get out much, so I've never seen "angkup randu" used in any context except in reference to a mendak. Now that I think of it, this particular design I seem to recall as having been described by Mr. Maisey as something like "an ideal, single-use collapsible shock absorber" (words in quotation marks not a direct quote, but intended to convey my recollection of the meaning I think he intended at the time).
Kapok, I have read, is what the Imperial Japanese Naval and Army Air Services used as the filler in flotation vests/life jackets for their air crews. (I suspect it's been used for the same purpose more recently than that).
I think that I may go ahead and submit a post describing "My Initial Impressions of the General Atmosphere of the 'Keris Warung Kopi' and the Reason for the Delay Between My Registration and My First Post".
My experience with Google Translator has been more hit than miss. For Malay-English, I'd say it's worse than useless. Better to copy and paste any unknown Malay text and translate it as Sundanese, then Indonesian, then Javanese, and then you might have an idea of what it means. For English-Indonesian and the other way around: very, very good. Something like 98.28% of my Feisbuk friends are Indonesian, and none have ever voiced any suspicion that I'm Inggris bule, and not Indonesian. I straight up told one guy that I was using a translator to chat with him, and I had a hard time convincing him that I wasn't pulling his leg. Javanese-English is very hit-or-miss. A very big problem is G.T. doesn't have an understanding of different registers. And then there are terms like "Buta Nawasari/Naswari/Ngawasari"; I still don't know if it's Bengali or Hindi which I ought to translate from. Perhaps it's Balinized Bengali, and therein lies the problem. A while ago, some Balinese danganan name I tried to translate came up as something like "cousin does not know knee broken". The important thing is: for all translations, click the "reverse translation" feature to be sure it makes sense, and that words with more than one possible meaning are being translated into the meaning you intend. This can be tricky; sometimes you need to change the word order to correspond to the syntax of the target language. Sometimes the syntax of colloquial spoken English is incorrect syntax, which causes the translation to make no sense. Sometimes you'll need to use a synonym for the translation to come out right. Google Translator is my default tool to use for all the languages I need to translate from/to (Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, Russian, Spanish, and Bahasa); only for Spanish do I sometimes need to use another as an adjunct.

19th February 2020, 10:55 AM	#3
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	Re: Angkup @ rasdan :This is quite interesting, and enlightening. Outside and inside calipers. I adjusted a couple to more secure positions upon the wood screws on which they hung on the wall at work just this morning. My apologies for "thread necromancy" and, perhaps, irrelevant commentary. I was following a train of thought during the course of research, and it led me here. Google Translator leads me to believe that "angkup randu" means something like "operator's manual for tweezers" or "hand-operated tweezers". Please don't feel obligated to reply. I'm sure the matter will sort itself out in time.

1st March 2020, 12:05 PM	#8
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	Re: Kapok, Google Translator, "angkup randu", et al. I often take things for granted; the most recent pertinent instance may have been assuming that the majority of readers of this forum will automatically associate "angkup randu" with a specific design of mendak. I don't get out much, so I've never seen "angkup randu" used in any context except in reference to a mendak. Now that I think of it, this particular design I seem to recall as having been described by Mr. Maisey as something like "an ideal, single-use collapsible shock absorber" (words in quotation marks not a direct quote, but intended to convey my recollection of the meaning I think he intended at the time). Kapok, I have read, is what the Imperial Japanese Naval and Army Air Services used as the filler in flotation vests/life jackets for their air crews. (I suspect it's been used for the same purpose more recently than that). I think that I may go ahead and submit a post describing "My Initial Impressions of the General Atmosphere of the 'Keris Warung Kopi' and the Reason for the Delay Between My Registration and My First Post". My experience with Google Translator has been more hit than miss. For Malay-English, I'd say it's worse than useless. Better to copy and paste any unknown Malay text and translate it as Sundanese, then Indonesian, then Javanese, and then you might have an idea of what it means. For English-Indonesian and the other way around: very, very good. Something like 98.28% of my Feisbuk friends are Indonesian, and none have ever voiced any suspicion that I'm Inggris bule, and not Indonesian. I straight up told one guy that I was using a translator to chat with him, and I had a hard time convincing him that I wasn't pulling his leg. Javanese-English is very hit-or-miss. A very big problem is G.T. doesn't have an understanding of different registers. And then there are terms like "Buta Nawasari/Naswari/Ngawasari"; I still don't know if it's Bengali or Hindi which I ought to translate from. Perhaps it's Balinized Bengali, and therein lies the problem. A while ago, some Balinese danganan name I tried to translate came up as something like "cousin does not know knee broken". The important thing is: for all translations, click the "reverse translation" feature to be sure it makes sense, and that words with more than one possible meaning are being translated into the meaning you intend. This can be tricky; sometimes you need to change the word order to correspond to the syntax of the target language. Sometimes the syntax of colloquial spoken English is incorrect syntax, which causes the translation to make no sense. Sometimes you'll need to use a synonym for the translation to come out right. Google Translator is my default tool to use for all the languages I need to translate from/to (Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, Russian, Spanish, and Bahasa); only for Spanish do I sometimes need to use another as an adjunct.

19th February 2020, 11:50 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Mickey, in Indonesian, Javanese, Old Javanese "randu" means kapok tree. In Modern Malay, Indonesian "angkup" means tweezers, pliers. In Modern Javanese "angkup randu" could be understood as "unopened bud of the kapok tree" > "angkup" in Javanese is an unopened bud. I do not know what "randu" means in Modern Malay, but I have a very foggy memory that in Classical Malay it is verb that means some sort of arm action.

19th February 2020, 08:56 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I think most keris people would know this,its pretty basic knowledge, but maybe some of the new boys might not, so it is worth mentioning I guess. There is a type of Solo mendak that is named "angkup randu" because it carries the angkup randu motif, which is pretty prevalent in Central Javanese ornamentation, and is also one of the common batik motifs. This motif is a representation of the kapok tree bud.

19th February 2020, 09:18 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The Malay meaning of "randu" was troubling me, so I looked it up in Wilkinson, published 1901, here is the dictionary entry:- Randu. I. The action of the arm in stirring up water or anything, when the arm is thrust into water and worked round and round so as to set the water in rapid motion. Randukan: to work up or mix anything by working the arm round and round in it; Sej, Mai., 122.