Assistance please

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2017, 10:53 PM

Thank you for your responses gentlemen.

The very high quality double edge dagger is a hunting dagger. Probably used by the lord to prod his helpers into the scrum to finish off the raging boar. I'm convinced.

But the other one?

Detlef reckons Genovese, or maybe it is a hunting knife too? Perhaps not a knife with a specific purpose, but just a personal knife?

It is a nice size for a knife that one could carry day in, day out, to slice up the cheese, the salami and the people who cheated at cards.

Don't forget that even though the fork was in use by about the 4th century in Rome, and was in common usage across Italy by the 1600's, in other parts of Europe it took another couple of hundred years to gain universal favour. I guess because Italians eat more pasta than Frenchmen and Englishmen. Anyway, in most of Europe the personal knife was indispensable right through until modern policing methods made them something to be avoided.

Maybe this knife with the holes in the ricasso was just a personal knife?

Gonzalo G · 16th May 2017, 09:45 PM

The second one is outsandingly similar to a "cuchillo criollo" of the gauchos. In both your cases, the widening of the blade after the hilt acted as a handguard to prevent the hand slipping down to the blade. It is a usual resource in some type of weapons which are used fastened under the belt, so the cloth does not get hooked so easily as with a traditional crossguard when the owner pulled the knife. The piece that covers the beginning of the blade is not only ornamental. It gives rigidity to the blade and helps in protecting the hand to avoid slipping and have an accidental cut.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2017, 03:48 AM

Thank you for your input Gonzalo.

A. G. Maisey · 27th June 2017, 12:36 AM

Just found this pic of another one on-line.

Any ideas where this might have come from?

kronckew · 27th June 2017, 06:51 AM

again, it has the look of an 18c italian/spanish dagger or gaucho facon. could be anywhere from italy west or southern part of so. america. looks fairly new & pattern welded, lots of custom makers out there who could have been influenced by the style. nice tho. odd edge geometry, like the earlier ones, looks like it's designed for thrusting only.

dimensions?

Gonzalo G · 29th June 2017, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

again, it has the look of an 18c italian/spanish dagger or gaucho facon. could be anywhere from italy west or southern part of so. america.

Sorry, just to clarify: facones have only one edge, dagas (daggers) have two. Argentinians differenciate both. Gaucho daggers are usually very large, but I have not seen them all. Although this type of dagger is not usual in Argentina, it is not impossible it actually could be made there. But I have reserves on this. The workmanship on the handle looks as it could be made in Spain or Argentina, but the workmanship and style of decoration on the blade does not look Argentinian. Triangular blades on daggers are more common in Italy than Spain, and this dagger looks as designed as a weapon and not as a hunting dagger. It looks small and not robust enough for this purpose, but the pictures alone does not give us a precise idea of it's dimensions. Daggers also can be used to cut and not only to stab. Poignards are exclusively designed to stab. Just search the different ways the British commando's daggers were used to (the Fairbairn-Sykes dagger). Also, the scabbard does not look Spanish or American.
But all this gives us only probabilities, not a certain attribution.
Regards

Gonzalo G · 30th June 2017, 01:57 AM

I think the general geometry, the decorative motifs, their workmanship and the material of the handle (what is the black stuff, where was it traded and worked?) could be the key to solve this matter. I would bet that America should be discarded. But I am not completely sure and my knowledge on this kind weapons is limited. I am sorry for not beign more useful.
Regards

mariusgmioc · 30th June 2017, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Just found this pic of another one on-line.

Any ideas where this might have come from?

Hello Alan,

I suspect this latter example is a recent recreation of an Italian hunting knife. Anyhow, I don't think it is "enthnographically correct."

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2017, 10:33 PM

Thank you for your further comments gentlemen.

Tell me Marius, why don't you think the latter example is "enthnographically correct." ?

I recognise that the scabbard is a bit gauche, but how about the knife itself?

If not ethnographically correct, where do you think it might have originated?

27th June 2017, 12:36 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Just found this pic of another one on-line. Any ideas where this might have come from? Attached Images

15th May 2017, 10:53 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you for your responses gentlemen. The very high quality double edge dagger is a hunting dagger. Probably used by the lord to prod his helpers into the scrum to finish off the raging boar. I'm convinced. But the other one? Detlef reckons Genovese, or maybe it is a hunting knife too? Perhaps not a knife with a specific purpose, but just a personal knife? It is a nice size for a knife that one could carry day in, day out, to slice up the cheese, the salami and the people who cheated at cards. Don't forget that even though the fork was in use by about the 4th century in Rome, and was in common usage across Italy by the 1600's, in other parts of Europe it took another couple of hundred years to gain universal favour. I guess because Italians eat more pasta than Frenchmen and Englishmen. Anyway, in most of Europe the personal knife was indispensable right through until modern policing methods made them something to be avoided. Maybe this knife with the holes in the ricasso was just a personal knife?

16th May 2017, 09:45 PM	#2
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	The second one is outsandingly similar to a "cuchillo criollo" of the gauchos. In both your cases, the widening of the blade after the hilt acted as a handguard to prevent the hand slipping down to the blade. It is a usual resource in some type of weapons which are used fastened under the belt, so the cloth does not get hooked so easily as with a traditional crossguard when the owner pulled the knife. The piece that covers the beginning of the blade is not only ornamental. It gives rigidity to the blade and helps in protecting the hand to avoid slipping and have an accidental cut. Regards

17th May 2017, 03:48 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you for your input Gonzalo.

27th June 2017, 06:51 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	again, it has the look of an 18c italian/spanish dagger or gaucho facon. could be anywhere from italy west or southern part of so. america. looks fairly new & pattern welded, lots of custom makers out there who could have been influenced by the style. nice tho. odd edge geometry, like the earlier ones, looks like it's designed for thrusting only. dimensions?

30th June 2017, 01:57 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I think the general geometry, the decorative motifs, their workmanship and the material of the handle (what is the black stuff, where was it traded and worked?) could be the key to solve this matter. I would bet that America should be discarded. But I am not completely sure and my knowledge on this kind weapons is limited. I am sorry for not beign more useful. Regards

30th June 2017, 10:33 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you for your further comments gentlemen. Tell me Marius, why don't you think the latter example is "enthnographically correct." ? I recognise that the scabbard is a bit gauche, but how about the knife itself? If not ethnographically correct, where do you think it might have originated?