A rapier by Pietro Hernandez

Gonzalo G · 14th May 2017, 06:38 AM

I don´t know if this can be useful, but according with the icollector web site, and I quote: "Excellent quality Victorian decorated rapier with period blade signed Pietro Hernandez. This rapier was probably a military issue and plain style which was embellished in the 19th Century; 47-1/2” overall with a 38” blade; good condition with normal aging. The hilt and blade show quality forging and the decorative chiseling and engraving are almost an exact simulation of 17th Century work but just not quite as fine or detailed enough." You can find the reference here:

It seems that there was made an intent to to imitate a very well known mark or stamp used on Spanish blades from the 15th and 16th Centuries, consisting in a small running dog, made with very elementary lines. For this reason, those swords were commonly called "Espadas del Perrillo" (Swords of the Little Dog). The mark belonged originally to Julián del Rey, known as Julián el Moro, a moorish converse from Granada, supposedly baptized by the king Ferdinand the Catholic. It is to be noted that, according with some people, this swordsmith made the famous jineta sword of Boabdil exhibited in the Museo del Ejército in Toledo, but latter the mark was imitated by other swordsmiths in Spain. Maybe even by those of Passau, and it most be taken care to not confuse the marks, since some people, not knowing this facts, misatribute a Espada del Perrillo to those of the running wolf from Passau. I was unable to load the image of this mark or stamp, since when I try to insert the image in this post, it appear a text "Enter the text to be formatted", and I don´t know how to upload, but you can see the image of the stamp here:

Regards

fernando · 14th May 2017, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... The hilt and blade show quality forging and the decorative chiseling and engraving are almost an exact simulation of 17th Century work but just not quite as fine or detailed enough." You can find the reference here: ... I was unable to load the image of this mark or stamp, since when I try to insert the image in this post, it appear a text "Enter the text to be formatted", and I don´t know how to upload, but you can see the image of the stamp here:...

Hola Gonzalo,
It is visible that you have not been around for some time (years). Let's try and update you.
You should not link to web life auctioners; i did save the sword you wish to show and will upload it here with the appropriate forum attachment pictures.
Concerning the second link in your post, It is not difficult, contrary to what you have experienced, to upload the perrillo mark, as also you should not get it by linking it to ephemeral blogs; also here i will upload this famous symbol with appropriate features. However if you have a quick view to recent threads or browse the forum archives, you will notice that much has been discussed about the perrillo mark; starting by the fact that the very image you have atempted to post is the one figuring in Palomares nomina; a chart often posted in recent (and earlier) discussions. One less dicussed detail but still present in our discussions on this subject is that, while the perrillo would have been a symbol used by Julian del Rey in his blades, such may have been a sort of quality contrast punzon, his personal sword smith mark, one eventually disputed in court by his son and also present and recognized in his blades in museums, is one associated with his name.
Obviously these are all perspectives; always subject to better judgement.

Abrazo

.

Gonzalo G · 14th May 2017, 10:36 PM

You overwhelm me, Fer. I will ask you via private message how to uoload images, since in the past I didn´t have problems to do it. Julián del Rey seems to have used at least three stamps, but I am under the impresion that the perrillo mark, present in the Palomares relation, was not his personal stamp, but I can be wrong. Don´t forget that the relation from Palomares is unaccurate and have some mistakes. The matter must be researched.

Sorry if I repeated statements already clarified in this forum. You are right, I was absent seven years from this and other forums, I am obsolete.

Gonzalo G · 17th May 2017, 12:51 AM

According with the sources, the mark of the perrillo always appear in authentic spanish blades accompanied by other stamps, seemingly personal stamps particular to each swordmaker. Some of those blades are not from Julián del Rey. All indicates that the perrillo mark was a sort of garantee of the quality of the steel of the respective sword, used by Spanish swordsmiths in the 16th Century and it was not the personal stamp from Julián del Rey. Probably the mark of the perrillo was used by the Hipanic-Arab swordsmiths since at least the 15th Century, if not before. Julián del Rey worked at the end of the 15th Century, beginnings of the 16th Century. It is possible that this mark was not invented by him, but taken from a common practice on that time. The scarcity of Hispano-Arabic pieces of quality from the period, makes it difficult to have certainty. Also, it most be considered that the animal was not really a dog, but a different species, though the Spanish people in time, would considere it a perrillo, a small dog, because of its resemblance.
Regards

Gonzalo G · 17th May 2017, 08:56 AM

On the other side, probably the running wolf from Passau was a mark developed independently of the "perrillo" mark, and I quote:

"The sign of a wolf was used by the swordsmiths from the German town of Passau, as it is confirmed in a charter from 1340. Herzog Albrecht of Austria gave permission to the guild of swordsmith in this southeastern Bavarian town to
put the sign of a wolf from the town coat of arms on the blades they produced. Albert III, bishop of Passau confirmed this right in a new charter from 1368: ‘That stamp, which we call wolf we restore, verify and acknowledge. And it is our will that also our swordsmiths here in Passau engrave the same sign of a wolf on each blade’."

from Marko Alecsic´s Maediaeval Swords from Southeastern Europe.

Regards

fernando · 18th May 2017, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

According with the sources, the mark of the perrillo always appear in authentic spanish blades accompanied by other stamps, seemingly personal stamps particular to each swordmaker. Some of those blades are not from Julián del Rey. All indicates that the perrillo mark was a sort of garantee of the quality of the steel of the respective sword, used by Spanish swordsmiths in the 16th Century and it was not the personal stamp from Julián del Rey. Probably the mark of the perrillo was used by the Hipanic-Arab swordsmiths since at least the 15th Century, if not before. Julián del Rey worked at the end of the 15th Century, beginnings of the 16th Century. It is possible that this mark was not invented by him, but taken from a common practice on that time. The scarcity of Hispano-Arabic pieces of quality from the period, makes it difficult to have certainty. Also, it most be considered that the animal was not really a dog, but a different species, though the Spanish people in time, would considere it a perrillo, a small dog, because of its resemblance.
Regards

You may well regard his subject as a "two ends stick", or a point of discord, yet to be clarified.
Assuming this 'quality contrast' mark represents the zoomorphic figure of a perrillo (little dog) ...
The canine is considered by Muslims as an impure animal, almost as maligne as swines. If Julian del Rey was indeed born a Moor, how could he use this symbol in his swords? was he so deeply converted that this was a way to show Christian stalkers he really changed his faith ?
On the other hand when we read Leguina's work, according to Maindron, who followed Babelon's perspective, Julian would never use the dog mark 'even' after being christianized.

kronckew · 18th May 2017, 05:26 PM

ah, yes, the koran says somewhere that 'thou shall not suffer a black dog to live'.

normal city dogs are indeed, to the islamic faithful, unclean foul and nasty scavenger animals.

the running hound depicted on blades however is likely in islamic cases anyway, a saluki, which is not considered a dog, and actually lives in the bedu tents as a family member. in the traditional home, they are never sold, but given as gifts (for which a large 'gift' is expected in return)., they are noble creatures loved by, and bonded to their humans, and used to hunt gazelle, and rabbits, and raced for status. again i mention that they are known for their feathering on the feet, legs, tail and especially their ears. see my avatar.

human, horse, falcon, saluki - living together still, a team that are the beduin, masters of the desert.

Jim McDougall · 18th May 2017, 10:10 PM

First thing...........................Gonzalo, ITS GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK!!!!!

Wayne, outstanding rendition on the Bedouin, and their dogs. I personally cannot see anything derogatory about dogs, in fact quite the contrary. They are outstanding and amazing beings, very much an important part of our world.

Getting to the 'perillo' dilemma, very interesting points Fernando makes, but looking at that image, I cannot see how it can be determined what this creature is (as Gonzalo has noted). It seems important to note that the 'running wolf' is always rendered in a four legged stance, not in the 'rampant' stance up on hind legs seen here. That seems more for lions , horses etc.
I think the 'perillo' moniker owes more to Cervantes colorful imbuement than actual intention , and has been described, its presence seems rather irregular as other marks are better known.

I had once thought that perhaps the perillo might be a perception toward the running wolf of Passau, which was of course known by this time, but since have regarded that unlikely.

While leaning toward these sorts of esoterica, I have always wondered about
the 'Lobera' sword of Fernando III of Castile of the 13th c. His grandson writing of his exploits in 1337 described his sword as "Lobera", (=the wolf hunter"). Could there be any sort of commemorative or honorific allusion?

14th May 2017, 06:38 AM	#1
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I don´t know if this can be useful, but according with the icollector web site, and I quote: "Excellent quality Victorian decorated rapier with period blade signed Pietro Hernandez. This rapier was probably a military issue and plain style which was embellished in the 19th Century; 47-1/2” overall with a 38” blade; good condition with normal aging. The hilt and blade show quality forging and the decorative chiseling and engraving are almost an exact simulation of 17th Century work but just not quite as fine or detailed enough." You can find the reference here: It seems that there was made an intent to to imitate a very well known mark or stamp used on Spanish blades from the 15th and 16th Centuries, consisting in a small running dog, made with very elementary lines. For this reason, those swords were commonly called "Espadas del Perrillo" (Swords of the Little Dog). The mark belonged originally to Julián del Rey, known as Julián el Moro, a moorish converse from Granada, supposedly baptized by the king Ferdinand the Catholic. It is to be noted that, according with some people, this swordsmith made the famous jineta sword of Boabdil exhibited in the Museo del Ejército in Toledo, but latter the mark was imitated by other swordsmiths in Spain. Maybe even by those of Passau, and it most be taken care to not confuse the marks, since some people, not knowing this facts, misatribute a Espada del Perrillo to those of the running wolf from Passau. I was unable to load the image of this mark or stamp, since when I try to insert the image in this post, it appear a text "Enter the text to be formatted", and I don´t know how to upload, but you can see the image of the stamp here: Regards Last edited by fernando; 14th May 2017 at 12:51 PM.

18th May 2017, 05:26 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	ah, yes, the koran says somewhere that 'thou shall not suffer a black dog to live'. normal city dogs are indeed, to the islamic faithful, unclean foul and nasty scavenger animals. the running hound depicted on blades however is likely in islamic cases anyway, a saluki, which is not considered a dog, and actually lives in the bedu tents as a family member. in the traditional home, they are never sold, but given as gifts (for which a large 'gift' is expected in return)., they are noble creatures loved by, and bonded to their humans, and used to hunt gazelle, and rabbits, and raced for status. again i mention that they are known for their feathering on the feet, legs, tail and especially their ears. see my avatar. human, horse, falcon, saluki - living together still, a team that are the beduin, masters of the desert. Attached Images

14th May 2017, 10:36 PM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	You overwhelm me, Fer. I will ask you via private message how to uoload images, since in the past I didn´t have problems to do it. Julián del Rey seems to have used at least three stamps, but I am under the impresion that the perrillo mark, present in the Palomares relation, was not his personal stamp, but I can be wrong. Don´t forget that the relation from Palomares is unaccurate and have some mistakes. The matter must be researched. Sorry if I repeated statements already clarified in this forum. You are right, I was absent seven years from this and other forums, I am obsolete.

17th May 2017, 12:51 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	According with the sources, the mark of the perrillo always appear in authentic spanish blades accompanied by other stamps, seemingly personal stamps particular to each swordmaker. Some of those blades are not from Julián del Rey. All indicates that the perrillo mark was a sort of garantee of the quality of the steel of the respective sword, used by Spanish swordsmiths in the 16th Century and it was not the personal stamp from Julián del Rey. Probably the mark of the perrillo was used by the Hipanic-Arab swordsmiths since at least the 15th Century, if not before. Julián del Rey worked at the end of the 15th Century, beginnings of the 16th Century. It is possible that this mark was not invented by him, but taken from a common practice on that time. The scarcity of Hispano-Arabic pieces of quality from the period, makes it difficult to have certainty. Also, it most be considered that the animal was not really a dog, but a different species, though the Spanish people in time, would considere it a perrillo, a small dog, because of its resemblance. Regards

17th May 2017, 08:56 AM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	On the other side, probably the running wolf from Passau was a mark developed independently of the "perrillo" mark, and I quote: "The sign of a wolf was used by the swordsmiths from the German town of Passau, as it is confirmed in a charter from 1340. Herzog Albrecht of Austria gave permission to the guild of swordsmith in this southeastern Bavarian town to put the sign of a wolf from the town coat of arms on the blades they produced. Albert III, bishop of Passau confirmed this right in a new charter from 1368: ‘That stamp, which we call wolf we restore, verify and acknowledge. And it is our will that also our swordsmiths here in Passau engrave the same sign of a wolf on each blade’." from Marko Alecsic´s Maediaeval Swords from Southeastern Europe. Regards

18th May 2017, 10:10 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,461	First thing...........................Gonzalo, ITS GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK!!!!! Wayne, outstanding rendition on the Bedouin, and their dogs. I personally cannot see anything derogatory about dogs, in fact quite the contrary. They are outstanding and amazing beings, very much an important part of our world. Getting to the 'perillo' dilemma, very interesting points Fernando makes, but looking at that image, I cannot see how it can be determined what this creature is (as Gonzalo has noted). It seems important to note that the 'running wolf' is always rendered in a four legged stance, not in the 'rampant' stance up on hind legs seen here. That seems more for lions , horses etc. I think the 'perillo' moniker owes more to Cervantes colorful imbuement than actual intention , and has been described, its presence seems rather irregular as other marks are better known. I had once thought that perhaps the perillo might be a perception toward the running wolf of Passau, which was of course known by this time, but since have regarded that unlikely. While leaning toward these sorts of esoterica, I have always wondered about the 'Lobera' sword of Fernando III of Castile of the 13th c. His grandson writing of his exploits in 1337 described his sword as "Lobera", (=the wolf hunter"). Could there be any sort of commemorative or honorific allusion?