keris hilts material

[David]

Thanks Marco, a very interesting and well presented article indeed, though i cannot say that it is not generously peppered with many questionable statements and inaccuracies that have plagued keris study for generations. It might be a good idea for us to ferret some of these out for discussion here.

[Sajen]

Thank you Marco!

[kai]

Hasn't this link been posted here before? If not, sorry for not bringing it over here earlier!

I'm with David - it seems like a compilation (mainly) based on secondary or tertiary sources and hardly any statements are explicitedly referenced.

Chinese whisper, anyone?

I realize how tough it is to present a critical discussion on interesting topics like this. I do believe though that we need to adhere to academic and/or journalistic standards, if we really want to progress from story-telling.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

An interesting article.

It is very easy to criticise any writing that deals with the keris. As a general rule knowledgeable keris people from Solo will ruthlessly criticise keris opinions and writing produced by people with a Jogja background, and the opposite is also true. Both will level criticism at opinions and writing produced by people from outside the heartlands of Jawa.

I think I have heard :- "Why don't people learn about the keris before they write about the keris?" more times than I can remember. But when generally held opinions change from place to place, keris group to keris group and even if you cross the road, it is not really so easy to present an opinion, or even well based information, that is acceptable to everybody.

Yes, there are a number of statements in this article that are questionable or inaccurate, but that is only a reflection of my own opinion, which in some respects could be as inaccurate as that which I question.

Certainly, many statements in this article are not attached to a citation. I can understand this, if I write something I have a lot of difficulty providing citations, for the simple reason that most of what I write is the product of either personal experience, often experience over years, of small fragments of information coming together to produce a whole.

Then there is the question of just how good any citation in the matter of keris knowledge is able to be. I do not know of any published work on the keris that I could not write pages of criticism on. Most have been produced by people who have never been a part of the core of keris knowledge, frequently by people who do not speak Bahasa Indonesia, and who do not understand the society or the culture from which the keris has come. Even when a piece of writing has been produced by an Indonesian it is often the case that the Indonesian concerned either does not understand Javanese, or is on the outside of the World of the Keris, looking in through a window.

I just wrote that I could level extensive criticism of every piece of writing on the keris. This was not correct. I do know of one piece of writing, only one, that is above criticism, and that is the landmark publication of Garrett & Bronwen Solyom.

Personally, I am rather hesitant to publicly criticise anybody when it comes to keris opinions, and writing on the keris. We are dealing here with a subject that does not have a solid, universally agreed foundation. Most of that which is accepted as "knowledge" is in fact opinion or belief, and the opinion or belief that we might hold has probably come from somebody else, either in full, or by way of another person's opinions or beliefs.

The article under discussion here seems to have an equal measure of information gathered from other published sources, and information that the writer has sourced from personal informants and personal experience. I have not seen anything quite like this article, and I personally regard it as a useful addition to the keris literature.

[David]

Well Alan, i don't completely disregard what you wrote. However, this is hopefully a place of learning where questionable parts of any writing presented for our edification can be discussed and debated. The alternative it to simply accept what is written, say thank you very much and move on. Yes, just about everything written on this topic is opinion, but if we don't question opinions that we either disagree with or feel that sufficient evidence to that opinion has not as of yet been presented we run the risk of simply extending false impressions for future generations of keris collectors. I don't believe anyone here has suggested that the linked article is not interesting and useful information. But i also find argument with it from the very first paragraph. If we are not here to discuss such things what are we here for.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I would most gently suggest that almost all writing on the keris is open to question, and that is why in most cases we express our opinions, rather than hard facts.

In respect of the article in question, there is a lot there that very few people are equipped to debate, and even if there is somebody who feels that he can debate the content, what solid evidence can he use to back up that debate?

I suggest that all anybody can do is to state an opposing opinion and quote somebody else's opposing opinion to support his own argument. Even where somebody who has personal experience of a matter can contradict something that has been written this still becomes an unsupported argument.

Kai would like to see academic standards, or journalistic standards maintained. So each time I write something that nobody else is aware of, I need to cite a reference, or perhaps supply photographs? Sorry, the best I can do in most cases is just to tell stories or give opinions, and since we are a friendly little group here, I personally feel that this is sufficient.

I am not suggesting that we should not discuss this article, or anything else for that matter, but I personally would draw the line at criticism of this article.

I did state an opinion though:-

"--- I personally regard it as a useful addition to the keris literature."

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I did state an opinion though:-

"--- I personally regard it as a useful addition to the keris literature."

Well that appears to be one opinion no one has so far disagreed with.
However, this article presents it's information not as opinion, but as fact. As such i personally have no problem questioning some of these views and i don't necessarily need evidential proof to the contrary to make a point about it.
For instance...
"The hilt is shaped to represent a squatting human figure (understood as a “divine” ancestor) and shares the same material as the blade, iron (or steely iron), which is often meteoric and therefore a symbol of the cosmic force."
What convincing evidence has ever been presented that meteoric ore was used with any consistency in keris manufacture before the Prambanan meteorite fall? I could never say that no keris was ever made with meteoric material before that 18th century fall, but i do feel fairly safe saying that it wasn't used "often" before then. Frankly, it wasn't really used often even after Prambanan.
Yes, i do realize that there are those who hold the opinion that keris have always used such "star metal" in its construction. However, if you are going to put that kind of questionable "information" in an academic article on the subject without backing up such claims they are, IMHO, fair game for criticism.
But frankly, i don't think i use that word criticism in the same manner as you do Alan. Maybe it is because i teach and am accustom to facilitating critique class all the time that i tend to use the secondary meaning of the word more often.
"...the analysis and judgment of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work. Alternative methods of criticism supported by well-developed literary theories.
synonyms:evaluation, assessment, appraisal, analysis, judgment"
Criticism need not always be negative and i do hope we can also discuss the virtues of this article as well as its potential errors.
Perhaps you could discuss what you actually find useful about the article.