Planning to make a wrongko

David · 25th April 2017, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Replying to Alan only, for the moment, I think I might understand your position, however having said that, I find myself asking more questions about this very same thing. Which means that you could possibly help me understand better. Let me put my problem this way: an ardent collector of edged weapons (kerisses or some other traditional weapon), needs to delve into all available facts pertaining to his area of interest, including the history, the tradition, the terminology and the symbolism of the weapon.

Some like to delve deeper than others. Surely a study of names and classification is part of this parcel. I'm sure you do not discourage this. But then I quickly include what you yourself have added: "...and the attached meanings".

So what I think you mean is that a collector can certainly go to great lengths to study the items in his collection, but do it honestly and with due consideration for the symbolism's meaning. I had understood it to be a very good example, to wax lyrical on the boats the gambar is supposed to represent. The garuda of the Bugis keris' pistol grip is another tantalising example.

I also accept that a discussion can arguably sometimes slant in the wrong direction, but my experience does not tell me which these slants may be. I know one must not bring in commercialism here, or disguise kerisses to look older of more valuable.

Interestingly, I have purposely steered away from names and classifcation in the Afrikaans article I wrote on my Javanese keris for submission to my collector society newsletter. I refrained from using a single Javanese or Malayan name for any of the keris components. I also do not even call it a keris, but a kris. I thought it would sound strange to call the hilt an ukiran (for instance) and not meaningfully justify my use of the Javanese word.

I'm progressing with my home-made wrongko (the whole scabbard) and can soon offer a pic or two when the job does not look so disgustingly rough anymore...!

Frankly Johan, shots of your sheath in progress can be very educational for both you and the viewer (who might be considering a similar course). By the time you show us just the finished product it will be too late to add any helpful suggestions to your process.

A. G. Maisey · 25th April 2017, 11:43 PM

Johan, the way in which you have stated your beliefs is in my experience quite accurate when we are talking about weapon collecting in general, and the attitudes of just about every collector of anything.

Collectors classify, describe, and create records. They are usually very focused on the physical presence of the object, and when they do dig a little deeper and begin to look at the collected object in the context of the society that generated it, that further investigation always relates back to the collected object. At least, this is what I have observed during the time I have held an interest in edged weapons, currently something in excess of 60 years.

I myself did go through this stage, but by about age 20 my interest had narrowed to a focus on only the keris, with a fringe interest in other S. E. Asian weapons. By the time I was in my early forties I was pretty much focused on only the keris in Jawa and Bali, and associated honoured weaponry. Over the last thirty odd years my interest has become more and more focused on societal and cultural elements that set the keris apart from all other weapons. I can no longer be regarded as a "collector" of edged weapons. My attitudes and values have changed, in fact, I probably left actual "collecting" behind a long time ago.

I realise that my standards are not the standards, nor the desires or motivations of most people with an interest in edged weaponry, or of the keris. In this respect, I am the odd man out, not everybody else. But I would like to see more people take the time and make the effort to truly understand what they are dealing with when they begin to take an interest in the keris.

You have taken the first steps in what may or may not become an abiding interest in the keris. Perhaps this wrongko project will be the extent of your interest, you will acquire a few keris, you will do your best to classify and label them, and they will enter your collection alongside an assortment of weapons.

There is nothing wrong with any of this. It is in fact what just about all collectors of weaponry do, and our function in this Forum is to assist people just like you, who have this interest.

But this realisation does not mean that I would not like to see the occasional person take the road less traveled and start to think about what might be behind the physical object that he can hold in his hands.

This is the reason I often throw in off the cuff remarks that might hopefully cause somebody, once in a while, to realise that what he thinks is so, and what many people will tell him is so, is in fact about as wrong as it can be.

Rick · 26th April 2017, 01:26 AM

Alan,
This fellow came to mind while reading your post.
Of course it's mostly about the forging; but I guess my point is that for Lemmy (iirc) this was his first kris.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5270

A. G. Maisey · 26th April 2017, 01:49 AM

I'd forgotten that Rick.

You must have a mind like a steel trap.

I've never been able to work well from pictures, whatever I was making, either with wood or metal, I've needed an example. I reckon that this is what gives away the recent Indian creations, the makers work from pictures, they don't have examples of whatever it is they're trying to make.

Rick · 26th April 2017, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You must have a mind like a steel trap.

Albeit a somewhat corroded and old one, Alan.

Lemmy made some interesting posts.

I saw a bit of a parallel with our aspiring scabbard maker.

A. G. Maisey · 26th April 2017, 02:48 AM

Yeah, I speed read the text and as soon as I get a chance I'll go back and read it properly.

Looks like there was some good stuff in it.

Johan van Zyl · 26th April 2017, 11:14 AM

In reply to David, let me see if I can post a pic or two of my incomplete project. Looks awful in this unkempt state! I promise it will look better after much elbow grease and TLC. Of course, as always, I welcome helpful hints and even flak. You will see I opted to go for the whole wrongko and not just the gambar and buntut.

In reply to Alan, I've always wondered: if I had the financial means to really treat myself when it comes to my edged weapons collection, would I have gone for specialisation or would I have stuck to my current mode of accumulating an interesting but varied assortment of historical weapons? I've never had enough funds to go to town as I would like, (who has??) what with kids at varsity and now grandchildren to help support. So, how such a collection, and my inclination towards it, would have ended up, I cannot tell. Your development as a young collector coincides in certain respects with mine, but the big difference is that in my locality I do not have access to keris items. The two I did fortunately get hold of, that I've reported on, came as a fluke not repeatable. Thinking back, I realise that I've owned, seen, handled, experienced such a wide variety of historical weapons of all kinds that I feel satisfied. I really believe the two extremes (going all-out in a specialised direction and accumulating a wide variety) both have their merits and appeal.

David, my files seem to be too big to attach. Let me see if I can adjust them.

25th April 2017, 11:43 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Johan, the way in which you have stated your beliefs is in my experience quite accurate when we are talking about weapon collecting in general, and the attitudes of just about every collector of anything. Collectors classify, describe, and create records. They are usually very focused on the physical presence of the object, and when they do dig a little deeper and begin to look at the collected object in the context of the society that generated it, that further investigation always relates back to the collected object. At least, this is what I have observed during the time I have held an interest in edged weapons, currently something in excess of 60 years. I myself did go through this stage, but by about age 20 my interest had narrowed to a focus on only the keris, with a fringe interest in other S. E. Asian weapons. By the time I was in my early forties I was pretty much focused on only the keris in Jawa and Bali, and associated honoured weaponry. Over the last thirty odd years my interest has become more and more focused on societal and cultural elements that set the keris apart from all other weapons. I can no longer be regarded as a "collector" of edged weapons. My attitudes and values have changed, in fact, I probably left actual "collecting" behind a long time ago. I realise that my standards are not the standards, nor the desires or motivations of most people with an interest in edged weaponry, or of the keris. In this respect, I am the odd man out, not everybody else. But I would like to see more people take the time and make the effort to truly understand what they are dealing with when they begin to take an interest in the keris. You have taken the first steps in what may or may not become an abiding interest in the keris. Perhaps this wrongko project will be the extent of your interest, you will acquire a few keris, you will do your best to classify and label them, and they will enter your collection alongside an assortment of weapons. There is nothing wrong with any of this. It is in fact what just about all collectors of weaponry do, and our function in this Forum is to assist people just like you, who have this interest. But this realisation does not mean that I would not like to see the occasional person take the road less traveled and start to think about what might be behind the physical object that he can hold in his hands. This is the reason I often throw in off the cuff remarks that might hopefully cause somebody, once in a while, to realise that what he thinks is so, and what many people will tell him is so, is in fact about as wrong as it can be.

26th April 2017, 01:26 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Alan, This fellow came to mind while reading your post. Of course it's mostly about the forging; but I guess my point is that for Lemmy (iirc) this was his first kris. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5270

26th April 2017, 01:49 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	I'd forgotten that Rick. You must have a mind like a steel trap. I've never been able to work well from pictures, whatever I was making, either with wood or metal, I've needed an example. I reckon that this is what gives away the recent Indian creations, the makers work from pictures, they don't have examples of whatever it is they're trying to make.

26th April 2017, 02:48 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Yeah, I speed read the text and as soon as I get a chance I'll go back and read it properly. Looks like there was some good stuff in it.

26th April 2017, 11:14 AM	#7
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	In reply to David, let me see if I can post a pic or two of my incomplete project. Looks awful in this unkempt state! I promise it will look better after much elbow grease and TLC. Of course, as always, I welcome helpful hints and even flak. You will see I opted to go for the whole wrongko and not just the gambar and buntut. In reply to Alan, I've always wondered: if I had the financial means to really treat myself when it comes to my edged weapons collection, would I have gone for specialisation or would I have stuck to my current mode of accumulating an interesting but varied assortment of historical weapons? I've never had enough funds to go to town as I would like, (who has??) what with kids at varsity and now grandchildren to help support. So, how such a collection, and my inclination towards it, would have ended up, I cannot tell. Your development as a young collector coincides in certain respects with mine, but the big difference is that in my locality I do not have access to keris items. The two I did fortunately get hold of, that I've reported on, came as a fluke not repeatable. Thinking back, I realise that I've owned, seen, handled, experienced such a wide variety of historical weapons of all kinds that I feel satisfied. I really believe the two extremes (going all-out in a specialised direction and accumulating a wide variety) both have their merits and appeal. David, my files seem to be too big to attach. Let me see if I can adjust them.