Planning to make a wrongko

Jean · 24th April 2017, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The better Bugis wrongkos normally use a middling hard wood with strong chatoyancy. You probably will not be able to get anything like this, and for a beginning carver, soft wood is a lot easier to handle than hard wood. Most mahoganies carve well, stay with what you have already started.

To me a good Bugis wrongko should have the gambar made from kemuning and the gandar from angsana like this specimen.

A. G. Maisey · 24th April 2017, 09:26 AM

Yes Jean true, but you are a connoisseur, our friend Johan is a beginning wood carver with no experience of keris, apart from which, I will stand naked on the Town Hall Steps playing a trumpet if he can source quality exotic woods such as kemuning and angsana in the location where he lives.

At this point I would most gently suggest that whatever he thinks is OK is what he should use.

I can tell you from long, hard experience that working with woods such as the ones in your presented example is not something for beginners, woods like this require a lot of skill and a touch of magic to get to required form and finish.

Johan van Zyl · 24th April 2017, 11:08 AM

I have read everything you all have written here, with great appreciation. Your comments deserve more attention than I can give it with one reading, so I will ruminate on them so as to be able to further decide on the steps to take in my woodworking project. Yes, Alan, my term "engrave" was very poorly chosen; I should have written "shape" or "sculpt" or better still, "carve".

I have also mistakenly used the word wrongko for the top part of the scabbard. Of course, the entire scabbard is warangka = wrangka = wrongko. I note that Alan uses "gambar" for the top part. This points to another area where I might brush up on my sometimes faulty terminology. Dredging up my voluminous keris notes, I see that I have "gambar" as a Javanese word as well as an Indonesian word, meaning picture or illustration.

Some writers equate the Malayan "sampir" with "wrangka". If by this, reference is made to the boat which the top part of the scabbard is supposed to represent, then this might contribute to misunderstanding. Popular books on the keris seem not to use "gambar" often, but if this is the strictly correct usage for the top part, then that is what I also want to use.

Concerning the boat representation, some writers compare the gambar with the traditional Pattani fishing boat of old, others just call it Chinese. And others simply say it points to the SEA communities as a seafaring people.

Sometimes I find it hard to put my keris notes down...

A. G. Maisey · 24th April 2017, 02:46 PM

Johan, I would suggest if I may that you do not get too involved with terminology. I tend to use Javanese terms when I do not use English, and other terms can apply in each different keris bearing society. It doesn't really matter what you call any of the wrongko parts as long as we all understand what is meant. Speaking only for myself, I'd be perfectly happy to see everybody using only English. Words are used to transfer ideas and the English language is a very good tool for this purpose.

The entire scabbard can be correctly referred to as wrongko (warangka), or just the top cross section (gambar) can be referred to as wrongko. It is not a good idea to argue with anybody about what is and is not correct.

I have a deep and abiding dislike of this endless discussion involving names and classifications in the absence of attached meanings. To my mind the whole collector discussion on keris is often slanted in entirely the wrong direction.

As for that business about wrongkos being inspired by boats and ships, well, I guess anybody can believe what they will.

Johan van Zyl · 25th April 2017, 03:55 PM

Replying to Alan only, for the moment, I think I might understand your position, however having said that, I find myself asking more questions about this very same thing. Which means that you could possibly help me understand better. Let me put my problem this way: an ardent collector of edged weapons (kerisses or some other traditional weapon), needs to delve into all available facts pertaining to his area of interest, including the history, the tradition, the terminology and the symbolism of the weapon.

Some like to delve deeper than others. Surely a study of names and classification is part of this parcel. I'm sure you do not discourage this. But then I quickly include what you yourself have added: "...and the attached meanings".

So what I think you mean is that a collector can certainly go to great lengths to study the items in his collection, but do it honestly and with due consideration for the symbolism's meaning. I had understood it to be a very good example, to wax lyrical on the boats the gambar is supposed to represent. The garuda of the Bugis keris' pistol grip is another tantalising example.

I also accept that a discussion can arguably sometimes slant in the wrong direction, but my experience does not tell me which these slants may be. I know one must not bring in commercialism here, or disguise kerisses to look older of more valuable.

Interestingly, I have purposely steered away from names and classifcation in the Afrikaans article I wrote on my Javanese keris for submission to my collector society newsletter. I refrained from using a single Javanese or Malayan name for any of the keris components. I also do not even call it a keris, but a kris. I thought it would sound strange to call the hilt an ukiran (for instance) and not meaningfully justify my use of the Javanese word.

I'm progressing with my home-made wrongko (the whole scabbard) and can soon offer a pic or two when the job does not look so disgustingly rough anymore...!

David · 25th April 2017, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Replying to Alan only, for the moment, I think I might understand your position, however having said that, I find myself asking more questions about this very same thing. Which means that you could possibly help me understand better. Let me put my problem this way: an ardent collector of edged weapons (kerisses or some other traditional weapon), needs to delve into all available facts pertaining to his area of interest, including the history, the tradition, the terminology and the symbolism of the weapon.

Some like to delve deeper than others. Surely a study of names and classification is part of this parcel. I'm sure you do not discourage this. But then I quickly include what you yourself have added: "...and the attached meanings".

So what I think you mean is that a collector can certainly go to great lengths to study the items in his collection, but do it honestly and with due consideration for the symbolism's meaning. I had understood it to be a very good example, to wax lyrical on the boats the gambar is supposed to represent. The garuda of the Bugis keris' pistol grip is another tantalising example.

I also accept that a discussion can arguably sometimes slant in the wrong direction, but my experience does not tell me which these slants may be. I know one must not bring in commercialism here, or disguise kerisses to look older of more valuable.

Interestingly, I have purposely steered away from names and classifcation in the Afrikaans article I wrote on my Javanese keris for submission to my collector society newsletter. I refrained from using a single Javanese or Malayan name for any of the keris components. I also do not even call it a keris, but a kris. I thought it would sound strange to call the hilt an ukiran (for instance) and not meaningfully justify my use of the Javanese word.

I'm progressing with my home-made wrongko (the whole scabbard) and can soon offer a pic or two when the job does not look so disgustingly rough anymore...!

Frankly Johan, shots of your sheath in progress can be very educational for both you and the viewer (who might be considering a similar course). By the time you show us just the finished product it will be too late to add any helpful suggestions to your process.

A. G. Maisey · 25th April 2017, 11:43 PM

Johan, the way in which you have stated your beliefs is in my experience quite accurate when we are talking about weapon collecting in general, and the attitudes of just about every collector of anything.

Collectors classify, describe, and create records. They are usually very focused on the physical presence of the object, and when they do dig a little deeper and begin to look at the collected object in the context of the society that generated it, that further investigation always relates back to the collected object. At least, this is what I have observed during the time I have held an interest in edged weapons, currently something in excess of 60 years.

I myself did go through this stage, but by about age 20 my interest had narrowed to a focus on only the keris, with a fringe interest in other S. E. Asian weapons. By the time I was in my early forties I was pretty much focused on only the keris in Jawa and Bali, and associated honoured weaponry. Over the last thirty odd years my interest has become more and more focused on societal and cultural elements that set the keris apart from all other weapons. I can no longer be regarded as a "collector" of edged weapons. My attitudes and values have changed, in fact, I probably left actual "collecting" behind a long time ago.

I realise that my standards are not the standards, nor the desires or motivations of most people with an interest in edged weaponry, or of the keris. In this respect, I am the odd man out, not everybody else. But I would like to see more people take the time and make the effort to truly understand what they are dealing with when they begin to take an interest in the keris.

You have taken the first steps in what may or may not become an abiding interest in the keris. Perhaps this wrongko project will be the extent of your interest, you will acquire a few keris, you will do your best to classify and label them, and they will enter your collection alongside an assortment of weapons.

There is nothing wrong with any of this. It is in fact what just about all collectors of weaponry do, and our function in this Forum is to assist people just like you, who have this interest.

But this realisation does not mean that I would not like to see the occasional person take the road less traveled and start to think about what might be behind the physical object that he can hold in his hands.

This is the reason I often throw in off the cuff remarks that might hopefully cause somebody, once in a while, to realise that what he thinks is so, and what many people will tell him is so, is in fact about as wrong as it can be.

24th April 2017, 09:26 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Jean true, but you are a connoisseur, our friend Johan is a beginning wood carver with no experience of keris, apart from which, I will stand naked on the Town Hall Steps playing a trumpet if he can source quality exotic woods such as kemuning and angsana in the location where he lives. At this point I would most gently suggest that whatever he thinks is OK is what he should use. I can tell you from long, hard experience that working with woods such as the ones in your presented example is not something for beginners, woods like this require a lot of skill and a touch of magic to get to required form and finish.

24th April 2017, 11:08 AM	#3
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	I have read everything you all have written here, with great appreciation. Your comments deserve more attention than I can give it with one reading, so I will ruminate on them so as to be able to further decide on the steps to take in my woodworking project. Yes, Alan, my term "engrave" was very poorly chosen; I should have written "shape" or "sculpt" or better still, "carve". I have also mistakenly used the word wrongko for the top part of the scabbard. Of course, the entire scabbard is warangka = wrangka = wrongko. I note that Alan uses "gambar" for the top part. This points to another area where I might brush up on my sometimes faulty terminology. Dredging up my voluminous keris notes, I see that I have "gambar" as a Javanese word as well as an Indonesian word, meaning picture or illustration. Some writers equate the Malayan "sampir" with "wrangka". If by this, reference is made to the boat which the top part of the scabbard is supposed to represent, then this might contribute to misunderstanding. Popular books on the keris seem not to use "gambar" often, but if this is the strictly correct usage for the top part, then that is what I also want to use. Concerning the boat representation, some writers compare the gambar with the traditional Pattani fishing boat of old, others just call it Chinese. And others simply say it points to the SEA communities as a seafaring people. Sometimes I find it hard to put my keris notes down...

24th April 2017, 02:46 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Johan, I would suggest if I may that you do not get too involved with terminology. I tend to use Javanese terms when I do not use English, and other terms can apply in each different keris bearing society. It doesn't really matter what you call any of the wrongko parts as long as we all understand what is meant. Speaking only for myself, I'd be perfectly happy to see everybody using only English. Words are used to transfer ideas and the English language is a very good tool for this purpose. The entire scabbard can be correctly referred to as wrongko (warangka), or just the top cross section (gambar) can be referred to as wrongko. It is not a good idea to argue with anybody about what is and is not correct. I have a deep and abiding dislike of this endless discussion involving names and classifications in the absence of attached meanings. To my mind the whole collector discussion on keris is often slanted in entirely the wrong direction. As for that business about wrongkos being inspired by boats and ships, well, I guess anybody can believe what they will.

25th April 2017, 03:55 PM	#5
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Replying to Alan only, for the moment, I think I might understand your position, however having said that, I find myself asking more questions about this very same thing. Which means that you could possibly help me understand better. Let me put my problem this way: an ardent collector of edged weapons (kerisses or some other traditional weapon), needs to delve into all available facts pertaining to his area of interest, including the history, the tradition, the terminology and the symbolism of the weapon. Some like to delve deeper than others. Surely a study of names and classification is part of this parcel. I'm sure you do not discourage this. But then I quickly include what you yourself have added: "...and the attached meanings". So what I think you mean is that a collector can certainly go to great lengths to study the items in his collection, but do it honestly and with due consideration for the symbolism's meaning. I had understood it to be a very good example, to wax lyrical on the boats the gambar is supposed to represent. The garuda of the Bugis keris' pistol grip is another tantalising example. I also accept that a discussion can arguably sometimes slant in the wrong direction, but my experience does not tell me which these slants may be. I know one must not bring in commercialism here, or disguise kerisses to look older of more valuable. Interestingly, I have purposely steered away from names and classifcation in the Afrikaans article I wrote on my Javanese keris for submission to my collector society newsletter. I refrained from using a single Javanese or Malayan name for any of the keris components. I also do not even call it a keris, but a kris. I thought it would sound strange to call the hilt an ukiran (for instance) and not meaningfully justify my use of the Javanese word. I'm progressing with my home-made wrongko (the whole scabbard) and can soon offer a pic or two when the job does not look so disgustingly rough anymore...!

25th April 2017, 11:43 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Johan, the way in which you have stated your beliefs is in my experience quite accurate when we are talking about weapon collecting in general, and the attitudes of just about every collector of anything. Collectors classify, describe, and create records. They are usually very focused on the physical presence of the object, and when they do dig a little deeper and begin to look at the collected object in the context of the society that generated it, that further investigation always relates back to the collected object. At least, this is what I have observed during the time I have held an interest in edged weapons, currently something in excess of 60 years. I myself did go through this stage, but by about age 20 my interest had narrowed to a focus on only the keris, with a fringe interest in other S. E. Asian weapons. By the time I was in my early forties I was pretty much focused on only the keris in Jawa and Bali, and associated honoured weaponry. Over the last thirty odd years my interest has become more and more focused on societal and cultural elements that set the keris apart from all other weapons. I can no longer be regarded as a "collector" of edged weapons. My attitudes and values have changed, in fact, I probably left actual "collecting" behind a long time ago. I realise that my standards are not the standards, nor the desires or motivations of most people with an interest in edged weaponry, or of the keris. In this respect, I am the odd man out, not everybody else. But I would like to see more people take the time and make the effort to truly understand what they are dealing with when they begin to take an interest in the keris. You have taken the first steps in what may or may not become an abiding interest in the keris. Perhaps this wrongko project will be the extent of your interest, you will acquire a few keris, you will do your best to classify and label them, and they will enter your collection alongside an assortment of weapons. There is nothing wrong with any of this. It is in fact what just about all collectors of weaponry do, and our function in this Forum is to assist people just like you, who have this interest. But this realisation does not mean that I would not like to see the occasional person take the road less traveled and start to think about what might be behind the physical object that he can hold in his hands. This is the reason I often throw in off the cuff remarks that might hopefully cause somebody, once in a while, to realise that what he thinks is so, and what many people will tell him is so, is in fact about as wrong as it can be.