for discussion - ancient Sepang ?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Are we supposed to believe this is "ancient?"

Are you testing us or what?

I do not know almost anything about kerises, but I am pretty sure this is a FAKE antiquated piece.

PS: This is from the same cheater like the previous one. The same manner of taking photos, the same "escavated" condition of the kerises and... the same leaves in the background.

[David]

So, just a thought here, not an accusation.
Is it wise for us as experienced collectors to pinpoint exactly what gives away a fake so that the forgers can learn from their mistakes and then create better fakes that are harder to judge?
I agree with Alan here. Please don't ask me why.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

So, just a thought here, not an accusation.
Is it wise for us as experienced collectors to pinpoint exactly what gives away a fake so that the forgers can learn from their mistakes and then create better fakes that are harder to judge?
I agree with Alan here. Please don't ask me why.

I quite agree with David's thoughts on this matter.
The Warung is not the only sub forum here that has to deal with this ever present possibility.

Let us not be a place for forgers to mine.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Rick

I quite agree with David's thoughts on this matter.
The Warung is not the only sub forum here that has to deal with this ever present possibility.

Let us not be a place for forgers to mine.

how do we advanced on knowledge if we always put prejudice forward instead of goodwill ? the expert won't share their knowledge, on fear that it may be used negatively and the newbies are only getting hints too difficult to cipher ?

just my 2 cents

Donny

[Rick]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

how do we advanced on knowledge if we always put prejudice forward instead of goodwill ? the expert won't share their knowledge, on fear that it may be used negatively and the newbies are only getting hints too difficult to cipher ?

just my 2 cents

Donny

I'm not advancing prejudice, Donny.
Far from it.
How are we supposed to accurately judge the authenticity of these pieces you put up from a handful of pixels on a screen?

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Rick

I'm not advancing prejudice, Donny.
Far from it.
How are we supposed to accurately judge the authenticity of these pieces you put up from a handful of pixels on a screen?

true, that's why I wanted to hear your opinion.

why ? because Indonesian keris forum is too full with mystics and spiritual mumbo jumbo

Donny

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

So, just a thought here, not an accusation.
Is it wise for us as experienced collectors to pinpoint exactly what gives away a fake so that the forgers can learn from their mistakes and then create better fakes that are harder to judge?
I agree with Alan here. Please don't ask me why.

I believed true keris old keris is impossible to duplicate. It may look the same, but won't feel the same. There are leads, clues that we can use to distinguish them. The problem is artificial aging is easy to be done, and forgers here are very good with what they do. To learn the true knowledge of distinguishing true old blade with new artificially aged ones are important at least for me.

that is exactly why I wanted to share some interesting findings amidst bunch of "ordinary keris" I commonly see in markets here.

We all have to admit that this hobby, or passion need new blood. And it is our duty to nurture those new blood so they wont spend their hard earned money on something fake, or artificially aged.

dunno with you all, but I always kept my mind on the positive

For example, I perfectly knew, that a Jalak Budho is a very rare keris, and yet it popped so many times now. So I treat everything with a pinch of salt and asked for someone far more experienced than me with hope that his opinion may shed new light for me as well as leaving a legacy for all to read and tread carefully.

thanks

Donny

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

PS: This is from the same cheater like the previous one. The same manner of taking photos, the same "escavated" condition of the kerises and... the same leaves in the background.

thank you for the accusation, Marius. No hard feeling here

all pictures here are posted with the owner's permission and where can you learn about various keris blades here in Indonesia ?

in the seller's home. He's my friend and he also selling keris, but that's not what we're dealing here. And since my friend never told lies to me, he only told the stories from the person he got the keris from. He hunted tosan aji in villages, I believed it is not wise to call him a cheater. On what occasion did he cheat on you, Marius ?

Amidst of hundreds of tosan aji he's selling, I am only picking what I believed interesting so ALL OF US may learn from it. Where it gone wrong, how to prevent buying a fake keris, how to distinguish a fake one from real ones. Look, I never knew there was actually a Sepang keris in proto form ... someone must've been making them or perhaps this got some kind of basis in reality ? or perhaps I am missing something here ...

who knows if one of have different opinion than mine.

I got most of my answers here, Alan taught me a lot ... to look for clues, the sulphur residue, the trinkets usually found along with the keris. Basically I loved you all because you always true, and that's what I am looking for.

I may not be as experienced as you are, and I really appreciate if you could share your insight, instead of simple lines saying it was artificially aged

for comparison, I collect Japanese sword, and you know what, even those who dealt with nihonto daily can still make a mistake when it comes to shinsa. It is not uncommon to see NTHK anda NBTHK differs in opinion on the same blade.

I have handled perhaps thousands of tosan aji, and still I felt stupider by the day, the more I knew, the more I aware that there are much more I did not understand

so pardon me if my Journey of learning by posting here are offending. If all of you already an expert on this field (which I am clearly not), I will stop posting here.

thank you
Donny

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

thank you for the accusation, Marius. No hard feeling here

all pictures here are posted with the owner's permission and where can you learn about various keris blades here in Indonesia ?

in the seller's home. He's my friend and he also selling keris, but that's not what we're dealing here. And since my friend never told lies to me, he only told the stories from the person he got the keris from. He hunted tosan aji in villages, I believed it is not wise to call him a cheater. On what occasion did he cheat on you, Marius ?

Donny

If I, who know almost nothing about kerises (as I handled about 10 kerises in my whole life, out of which 7 are in my collection) could immediately spot a fake, then I would expect your "honest" dealer friend can do it even better.

To me, even atempted cheating is cheating!

And I felt cheated by your friend's repeted stories. But, no, I forgot, they are not even your friend's stories, but the original seller'stories. Your friend, has nothing to say as of course he knows nothing (or almost nothing) about kerises... right?! So, if your dealer friend knows so little about kerises, like any "honest" dealer, the best he can do is to present the story that supposedly came with the keris and let the "caveat emptor" rule...

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

If I, who know almost nothing about kerises (as I handled about 10 kerises in my whole life, out of which 7 are in my collection) could immediately spot a fake, then I would expect your "honest" dealer friend can do it even better.

To me, even atempted cheating is cheating!

And I felt cheated by your friend's repeted stories. But, no, I forgot, they are not even your friend's stories, but the original seller'stories. Your friend, has nothing to say as of course he knows nothing (or almost nothing) about kerises... right?! So, if your dealer friend knows so little about kerises, like any "honest" dealer, the best he can do is to present the story that supposedly came with the keris and let the "caveat emptor" rule...

wow, and may you elaborate on when or where do we attempt cheating on you specifically ?

do I mention the blade is up for sale somewhere ?

I choose to post something because I think there is a lesson to be learned, or to prove myself wrong ... by knowledge, of course

in this point, I read Alan's blog, and see the ancient relief on ancient temple about keris, of which shared some similarities with the example above.

Marius, I believed that it is never wise to point your finger to someone based on prejudice. My friend made a living selling keris, I never said he's an expert at keris. He only made judgement based on what he sees or believed correct. As I said he hunted keris from remote villages and sometimes he got it right, sometimes he got it wrong ... you should be able to pull the string here that he's not Bambang Harsrinuksmo

lasty, how does if feel if someone who barely knows you accusing you of cheating, Marius ? because I got the impression of saint-like personality from you ... perhaps you never cheat in your life

Donny