Odd Sword

Victrix · 20th April 2017, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Victrix, Whilst to some it may seem obvious that a cross implies a religious context however on many ancient weapons fished from lakes and rivers across Europe the cross is the only obvious recognisable coded inscription amongst often a line of unrecognisable capitals described as feudal religious shorthand !!...(of no known origin). For a balanced view of this please see http://blog.world-mysteries.com/stra...usaders-sword/ and note how the author has done just as you suggest and has focussed on the cross format... This is usually the Jerusalam Cross with tee shaped ends. Where a pommel exists there may be an etched similar cross done after the shock of battle by the owner..And so the cross is something we can be safely confident about...the rest is as yet undiscovered however...Note that letters do not have to be from the same alphabet !! and they may be numbers.

On further reflection I note that the cross on the project sword is not actually the Jerusalem Cross but a variant ... The Forked Cross. It may illustrate a similar provenance and is anyway another of the heraldic crosses..

Salaam Ibrahiim,

I love the links to documents you have posted on this thread concerning interpreting inscriptions on medieaval swords. It has been very interesting reading! Also I like the Arn movie which is mentioned in the last document. History is truly fascinating... The sword which you are investigating is clearly very different from the medieaval knight swords. If you are decoding something you obviously have to know what symbols you are dealing with, and this particular time period is tricky because of the popularity of occult superstitions (akin to Sufist mysticism?). That's why I wonder if it's worth the effort? Following your comments I did a quick search on the cross symbol and found this (see photo below) in Symbols: Encyclopedia of Western Signs and Ideograms by Carl G. Liungman. The symbols could even be linked to alchemy (!). Also, the Augsburg symbol you refer to is different to the symbol on the sword which has an asymmetric horizontal bar at the top (only on the left side).

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2017, 07:07 PM

Ibrahiim thank you for the kind note!! and I agree in thanking you for the interesting material. That article you linked has been most helpful for some time now in the long standing quest in studying these blade markings and inscriptions. It is most encouraging to see others join in with looking into the history and fascinating esoterica often held in the secrets these elements hold.

Here I especially would like to note the references to the legendary sword Excalibur of the Arthurian romances, and its association with the 'Lady of the Lake'. Indeed this is reflective of certain conventions of the powerful mystique of swords in these times, and throughout history. The key element noted in this respect is that Excalibur did carry blade inscriptions, which seem to vary in versions of these tales. It is interesting to compare the fact that it was then deposited in the lake for future events of importance.
We do not know what actual inscriptions were emplaced, and these varied with authors. One notion suggested that the term 'cut steel' was used, much in the manner of the 'Eisenhauer' term used on German blades of the 19thc.

We turn to the much heralded 'River Witham' swords, two swords which were found in this English river in the mid 19th c. and both bear mysterious inscriptions labeled as 'magical' which still defy decryption .
These swords , while both with such inscriptions, are from periods centuries apart, suggesting that they were either deposited or lost in these close locations at different times. The question of course is compelling....could these swords, carrying deeply cryptic magical imbuement, have been deposited in this romantic knightly manner of Arthurian legend?

While our blade in discussion is obviously not a knightly sword, but an arming blade of probably 17th century, we must remember that these traditions, imbuements and commemorations were very much part and parcel of characteristic blade decoration and motif even then.

I would point out here that the very act of 'decoding' is first determining exactly what 'code' is being examined. The symbols, glyphs and devices of religious orientation, magical and various occult and talismanic forms, and linguistic characters including gemetria are often entwined as previously noted.
It must be remembered that these times, into much later, illiteracy was primarily the norm, of course with lack of formal education or any sort of informative media to the population at large. With this, superstition and religiously oriented fear prevailed. This accounts well for the importance of symbols and devices in many aspects, which also pertains to these kinds of blade decoration.
Alchemy in these times was not 'science' or 'chemistry', it was very much occultism and magic, so of course the symbols were shared.

Another factor which is firmly emplaced in the mysteries of blade inscriptions and markings which does not fall into the Christian invocations and knightly category are those involving cabalistic mysticism and symbols.
However, we have seen that in many cases, such sigils and glyphs may transcend into other contexts as many were shared or remarkably similar.

Yet another denominator in sword blade markings, are those using the elements of these categories in degree, and or, the acrostic methods described earlier, by various secret groups, orders or organizations.
I have seen other sword blades, and items such as helmets etc. with letter/ character groups in similar number (around 5) and again, these have been attempted to decipher with Latin words and phrases etc. to no avail.

It may be impossible to determine the explanation for this curious inscription, but as we continue to try, we learn, and that is what we're about

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd April 2017, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim thank you for the kind note!! and I agree in thanking you for the interesting material. That article you linked has been most helpful for some time now in the long standing quest in studying these blade markings and inscriptions. It is most encouraging to see others join in with looking into the history and fascinating esoterica often held in the secrets these elements hold.

Here I especially would like to note the references to the legendary sword Excalibur of the Arthurian romances, and its association with the 'Lady of the Lake'. Indeed this is reflective of certain conventions of the powerful mystique of swords in these times, and throughout history. The key element noted in this respect is that Excalibur did carry blade inscriptions, which seem to vary in versions of these tales. It is interesting to compare the fact that it was then deposited in the lake for future events of importance.
We do not know what actual inscriptions were emplaced, and these varied with authors. One notion suggested that the term 'cut steel' was used, much in the manner of the 'Eisenhauer' term used on German blades of the 19thc.

We turn to the much heralded 'River Witham' swords, two swords which were found in this English river in the mid 19th c. and both bear mysterious inscriptions labeled as 'magical' which still defy decryption .
These swords , while both with such inscriptions, are from periods centuries apart, suggesting that they were either deposited or lost in these close locations at different times. The question of course is compelling....could these swords, carrying deeply cryptic magical imbuement, have been deposited in this romantic knightly manner of Arthurian legend?

While our blade in discussion is obviously not a knightly sword, but an arming blade of probably 17th century, we must remember that these traditions, imbuements and commemorations were very much part and parcel of characteristic blade decoration and motif even then.

I would point out here that the very act of 'decoding' is first determining exactly what 'code' is being examined. The symbols, glyphs and devices of religious orientation, magical and various occult and talismanic forms, and linguistic characters including gemetria are often entwined as previously noted.
It must be remembered that these times, into much later, illiteracy was primarily the norm, of course with lack of formal education or any sort of informative media to the population at large. With this, superstition and religiously oriented fear prevailed. This accounts well for the importance of symbols and devices in many aspects, which also pertains to these kinds of blade decoration.
Alchemy in these times was not 'science' or 'chemistry', it was very much occultism and magic, so of course the symbols were shared.

Another factor which is firmly emplaced in the mysteries of blade inscriptions and markings which does not fall into the Christian invocations and knightly category are those involving cabalistic mysticism and symbols.
However, we have seen that in many cases, such sigils and glyphs may transcend into other contexts as many were shared or remarkably similar.

Yet another denominator in sword blade markings, are those using the elements of these categories in degree, and or, the acrostic methods described earlier, by various secret groups, orders or organizations.
I have seen other sword blades, and items such as helmets etc. with letter/ character groups in similar number (around 5) and again, these have been attempted to decipher with Latin words and phrases etc. to no avail.

It may be impossible to determine the explanation for this curious inscription, but as we continue to try, we learn, and that is what we're about

Salaams Jim, and thank you for your post which is most encouraging...I draw Forum attention to your last line Quote" It may be impossible to determine the explanation for this curious inscription, but as we continue to try, we learn, and that is what we're about."Unquote. Absolutely Jim and thanks again...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd April 2017, 05:04 PM

...http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369

Food for thought is abundant at the above link...It should be considered that the project sword (The Odd Sword) carries a much later Omani pommel.... blistered onto a much older blade. Indeed the actual hilt may be more like the above link. I therefor return to look at Portuguese examples...where available.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd April 2017, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Salaam Ibrahiim,

I love the links to documents you have posted on this thread concerning interpreting inscriptions on medieaval swords. It has been very interesting reading! Also I like the Arn movie which is mentioned in the last document. History is truly fascinating... The sword which you are investigating is clearly very different from the medieaval knight swords. If you are decoding something you obviously have to know what symbols you are dealing with, and this particular time period is tricky because of the popularity of occult superstitions (akin to Sufist mysticism?). That's why I wonder if it's worth the effort? Following your comments I did a quick search on the cross symbol and found this (see photo below) in Symbols: Encyclopedia of Western Signs and Ideograms by Carl G. Liungman. The symbols could even be linked to alchemy (!). Also, the Augsburg symbol you refer to is different to the symbol on the sword which has an asymmetric horizontal bar at the top (only on the left side).

Salaams Victrix, and thanks for the detail you include. I agree the Majescule in my post is not the right one to match the Augsberg...so I sideline that. On the idea of trying to discover the code I think that while you are probably right in that finding an answer may take forever I think giving it a go now and again is perhaps the best way to continue looking in on this important subject and hoping that some future student may indeed crack it...Having it on Library is part of the battle and your additional notes are a great help.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Victrix · 22nd April 2017, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Victrix, and thanks for the detail you include. I agree the Majescule in my post is not the right one to match the Augsberg...so I sideline that. On the idea of trying to discover the code I think that while you are probably right in that finding an answer may take forever I think giving it a go now and again is perhaps the best way to continue looking in on this important subject and hoping that some future student may indeed crack it...Having it on Library is part of the battle and your additional notes are a great help.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaam Ibrahiim,

I can understand your curiosity with this blade. It has a certain lustre which made me wonder if it's not made from silver, and then the symbols which look like they came from a sorcerer. Maybe one day the riddle will reveal itself.

Al Ghouti

20th April 2017, 07:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Ibrahiim thank you for the kind note!! and I agree in thanking you for the interesting material. That article you linked has been most helpful for some time now in the long standing quest in studying these blade markings and inscriptions. It is most encouraging to see others join in with looking into the history and fascinating esoterica often held in the secrets these elements hold. Here I especially would like to note the references to the legendary sword Excalibur of the Arthurian romances, and its association with the 'Lady of the Lake'. Indeed this is reflective of certain conventions of the powerful mystique of swords in these times, and throughout history. The key element noted in this respect is that Excalibur did carry blade inscriptions, which seem to vary in versions of these tales. It is interesting to compare the fact that it was then deposited in the lake for future events of importance. We do not know what actual inscriptions were emplaced, and these varied with authors. One notion suggested that the term 'cut steel' was used, much in the manner of the 'Eisenhauer' term used on German blades of the 19thc. We turn to the much heralded 'River Witham' swords, two swords which were found in this English river in the mid 19th c. and both bear mysterious inscriptions labeled as 'magical' which still defy decryption . These swords , while both with such inscriptions, are from periods centuries apart, suggesting that they were either deposited or lost in these close locations at different times. The question of course is compelling....could these swords, carrying deeply cryptic magical imbuement, have been deposited in this romantic knightly manner of Arthurian legend? While our blade in discussion is obviously not a knightly sword, but an arming blade of probably 17th century, we must remember that these traditions, imbuements and commemorations were very much part and parcel of characteristic blade decoration and motif even then. I would point out here that the very act of 'decoding' is first determining exactly what 'code' is being examined. The symbols, glyphs and devices of religious orientation, magical and various occult and talismanic forms, and linguistic characters including gemetria are often entwined as previously noted. It must be remembered that these times, into much later, illiteracy was primarily the norm, of course with lack of formal education or any sort of informative media to the population at large. With this, superstition and religiously oriented fear prevailed. This accounts well for the importance of symbols and devices in many aspects, which also pertains to these kinds of blade decoration. Alchemy in these times was not 'science' or 'chemistry', it was very much occultism and magic, so of course the symbols were shared. Another factor which is firmly emplaced in the mysteries of blade inscriptions and markings which does not fall into the Christian invocations and knightly category are those involving cabalistic mysticism and symbols. However, we have seen that in many cases, such sigils and glyphs may transcend into other contexts as many were shared or remarkably similar. Yet another denominator in sword blade markings, are those using the elements of these categories in degree, and or, the acrostic methods described earlier, by various secret groups, orders or organizations. I have seen other sword blades, and items such as helmets etc. with letter/ character groups in similar number (around 5) and again, these have been attempted to decipher with Latin words and phrases etc. to no avail. It may be impossible to determine the explanation for this curious inscription, but as we continue to try, we learn, and that is what we're about

22nd April 2017, 05:04 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	...http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369 Food for thought is abundant at the above link...It should be considered that the project sword (The Odd Sword) carries a much later Omani pommel.... blistered onto a much older blade. Indeed the actual hilt may be more like the above link. I therefor return to look at Portuguese examples...where available.