Austrian hussar sabre for ID

[Victrix]

Jim,

This quote might come in handy for future reference regarding the notorious German bayonets: "We overhaul the bayonets...the ones that have a saw on the blunt edge. If the fellows over there catch a man with one of those, he's killed at sight." (Erich Maria Remarque, All Quiet on the Western Front).

There seems to be a parallel discussion about the purpose of notches on knives on the internet. I guess it's highly implausible that the notches on pallasch and sabre blade tips could be intended to catch the opponents' blades and wrest those out of their hands? Apparently there's also something called a "Spanish notch" on Bowie knives which is something else?

I guess the existence of notches on Prussian and French sword blades are only hearsay so far. It would be nice to discover photos of some examples to prove their existence.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Victrix! This is quite a trip down memory lane, and researches from many years back which were fascinating and actually pretty great adventures.
Interesting note on the Remarque novel, of course an all time classic which observed the accounts on those bayonets. I recall one of those being one of my very first weapons I collected as a kid, back in the early 60s. I thought it was pretty scary and my friends thought I was nuts for having such a ghastly thing...no need to mention my parents thoughts!

Thank you for that quote!!! I had never known of that in that book, but of course knew the movie well.

The old blade catcher myth is another well used chestnut, and pretty well dispelled by Egerton Castle, in "Schools and Masters of Fence" (1885) particularly with the toothed 'sword breakers'. These were primarily novelties with the left hand daggers basically out of use by their time according to his findings. It is virtually the same instance with most other 'sword catching' features such as notches, and only quillons and guards served such purposes, then usually nominally.

The 'Spanish notch' is another one which came up in my research years ago (now I really want to find these notes!). It was in an article in a magazine around 1979, and I cannot recall the authors name. No satisfactory conclusion was ever found but it seems these notches on the back of the blade were on 'Meditteranean' knives. These were typically used aboard ships by sailors, who used them of course as weapons in the expected knife fights among themselves. It was from these that the Bowie brothers learned the art of knife fighting, and it is believed that they were ancestors of the fabled 'Bowie' knife.
I was told by a blacksmith working in the James Black smithy in Arkansas, home of the 'Bowie', that Black always 'notched' his blades. These had no purpose but were a vestigial nod to those early knives, mostly Spanish but many French ( prevalent in Louisiana of course).

It is in that rather 'honorific' sense that these were notched that makes me wonder of there is perhaps some such 'gesture' or symbolic notion which might have been behind these mysteriously applied features.

Thank you for sharing in pondering these curious notches, and for your patience as I drag out all these research memories!

[Jim McDougall]

For the record, three pages from Wagner (I think there are about 8 examples) and another blade with notches but source unk.

Actually in some notes I found, there is mention of reins being the object of attack where if a riders reins were cut, and control of his horse lost, he was in serious trouble in melee action. There were cases in which this actually prompted reins with guards or chain I believe.
Also, by the same token perhaps these notches could help a rider retrieve his reins if dropped without dismounting?

[corrado26]

Thank you very much - I take this for a very good and plausible thought, really a very good explanation and perhaps the best I have red until today.
corrado26

[fernando]

Let me not be a party pooper, Jim (and corrado) but, wouldn't you find these notches to small to pick and pull up 'thick' reins straps ? .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Let me not be a party pooper, Jim (and corrado) but, wouldn't you find these notches to small to pick and pull up 'thick' reins straps ? .

Good question Fernando, and in actuality, most of the suggestions that have been presented by authorities such as Wagner and other museum officials, collectors et al, though desperately trying to find a pragmatic explanation for these notches, have been equally fanciful.

As I have noted, even the character of these notches, let alone size, defies reasonable plausibility in accord with the proposed purposes. In the case of one pandour sabre I handled, the notch was too small for any effective purpose, yet it was faithfully placed in the same blade location.

My only recourse throughout the many years of trying to resolve this unusual feature has been to consider some long forgotten symbolic gesture for it. As I had mentioned, Bowie knives have long received a vestigial notch on the back of the blade in this manner. We may consider the 'choil' on the back of the kukri blade, faithfully placed, but with no explainable purpose.
The notion of notching a blade to serve as a 'blade catcher' is of course pure nonsense as far as I have seen in more years of studying this phenomenon than I can say exactly.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...My only recourse throughout the many years of trying to resolve this unusual feature has been to consider some long forgotten symbolic gesture for it ...

My non-initiated perspective has little weight but, unless some clear (convincing) evidence of a practical purpose of these cuts shows up, i would subscribe your thoughts .

[kronckew]

Since there was no illustration of the Spanish Notch:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...

The 'Spanish notch' is another one which came up in my research years ago (now I really want to find these notes!). It was in an article in a magazine around 1979, and I cannot recall the authors name. No satisfactory conclusion was ever found but it seems these notches on the back of the blade were on 'Meditteranean' knives. These were typically used aboard ships by sailors, who used them of course as weapons in the expected knife fights among themselves. It was from these that the Bowie brothers learned the art of knife fighting, and it is believed that they were ancestors of the fabled 'Bowie' knife.
I was told by a blacksmith working in the James Black smithy in Arkansas, home of the 'Bowie', that Black always 'notched' his blades. These had no purpose but were a vestigial nod to those early knives, mostly Spanish but many French ( prevalent in Louisiana of course).
...

Originally Posted by From wiki:

Some Bowie knives had a notch on the bottom of the blade near the hilt known as a "Spanish Notch". The Spanish Notch is often cited as a mechanism for catching an opponent's blade; however, some Bowie researchers hold that the Spanish Notch is ill-suited to this function and frequently fails to achieve the desired results. These researchers, instead, hold that the Spanish Notch has the much more mundane function as a tool for stripping sinew and repairing rope and nets, as a guide to assist in sharpening the blade (assuring that the sharpening process starts at a specific point and not further up the edge), or as a point to relieve stress on the blade during use.

A picture is worth a ....aw, you know...


My 'Fowler' Bowie with the 'Spanish' notch:
I suspect it is just a traditional decorative feature, much like the cho or kaudi on a khukuri, which also has a 'nobody really knows why' reputation. I have other bowies with various 'spanish notches'. I'll add a thought that they were the starting point for sharpening. Which looks like the reason for the very plain notch on my smaller "gambler's" bowie at the bottom.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Since there was no illustration of the Spanish Notch:

A picture is worth a ....aw, you know...

My 'Fowler' Bowie with the 'Spanish' notch:
I suspect it is just a traditional decorative feature, much like the cho or kaudi on a khukuri, which also has a 'nobody really knows why' reputation. I have other bowies with various 'spanish notches'. I'll add a thought that they were the starting point for sharpening. Which looks like the reason for the very plain notch on my smaller "gambler's" bowie at the bottom.

Interesting. I had always believed a Spanish notch was an indention in a self-guard to help prevent the hand from slipping forward onto a blade. To me the second illustration shows a choil used to prevent the thick and hard to sharpen portion of a blade at the end of the ricasso (which this blade lacks).
I personally have always found the choil more of a nuisance than a help especially if the distal end of the notch doesn't slope towards the point. That said I have been told that large choils are used with big knives to allow fingering the blade to help with delicate tasks. I have heard, and maybe read it on this site as well, that specially shaped choils on some knife patterns help with tasks that are regionally common. I always wondered if the cho didn't start that way, or maybe it is just a linga.

The first example seems to somewhere between all three a notch, a choil, and decoration. I am sorry not to have my own illustrations. I delayed this post almost a week and realized I would never publish it if I waited on pictures any longer.

[cel7]

Interesting discussion about the hook. I myself have a Dutch cavalry officers saber model 1813. This one also has this strange hook (see pictures).
A few years ago there was a large auction of 556 Dutch trooper swords and sabers from the Rijksmuseum depot. This included one curious saber with two semicircular recesses on the tip. Years ago, this collection of sabers from the museum's depot was extensively researched and described by the Dutch researcher G Hof. I have attached his report on this strange saber. Since most of you can't read Dutch, I'll summarize it briefly:
He describes the blade and scabbard of a light cavalry saber No.1. Now you should know that the Netherlands bought a batch of m1796 pattern sabers in England. They arrived in Holland at the end of 1813. Deviating is that a British pattern 1821 light cavalry hilt is mounted on this specific example. According to him, this is not surprising because the Netherlands has conducted tests with, among other things, this type of saber. Unfortunately, Mr. Hof can also find no explanation for the strange recess.
Because Mr. Hof does not rule out the possibility that it may be a test saber, the semicircular recesses could also have been made for testing in my opinion.

[cel7]

Does anyone have any idea what purpose these semicircular cutouts would have served?