Austrian hussar sabre for ID

fernando · 15th April 2017, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

...Some fotos of my former collection may be of some interest...

Beautiful pices indeed

.

Jim McDougall · 15th April 2017, 05:23 PM

I very much second Fernando's comment!! Fantastic pieces!

I have not yet found the book I mentioned...it is a paperback.
"Edged Weapons:Sabres of the Hapsburg Monarchy 16th-20thc"
Jan Sach & Petr Moudry
This is primarily an identification handbook, captioned in three languages, but text is limited.

Victrix, excellent and concise insight regarding the 'hussar' development in these regions, which became the standard for European light cavalry.

I think the notion that the hussars evolved in 'Hungary', as mentioned, is very much as described, as the Hapsburg Empire with Hungary as its epicenter, broadly encompassed so many countries in Europe. Hungary became more of a collective term used descriptively by writers in earlier times.

Also, according to Jan Ostrowski, in "Origins of the Polish Sabre" (1979, p.222 ), "....Hungarian blade production, if it existed at all, must have been very limited, for the 17th c. records tell of blade purchase in mass from Styrian and Italian manufacturers and the great majority of surviving Hungarian sabres have Styrian and Genovese blades often marked with crescent moons and inscription Genoa, Fringia and Francia".

It seems that even with the strong favor for 'Hungarian' blades in Arabia presumed them to be from there, and termed them accordingly 'Magyar' ( though in Arabian of course). I have had Bedouin sabres which were clearly marked with the so called 'Transylvanian knot', essentially talismanic or magic oriented devices and wording.

There is a great deal of colorful and romanticized history of course with the hussar phenomenon in cavalry, and I recall one element which I researched for some time back in the 90s. It had to do with the notching of the blade back near the tip on Austrian cavalry swords. I first saw this in the illustration in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967). There were a number of the line drawings of these swords with this curious notch. Despite efforts with a number of museums noted in his book, there were no viable explanations of this strange but deliberate feature.

Perhaps those of you who have collected and studied these Austrian arms have noticed these, and might have some thoughts?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th April 2017, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I very much second Fernando's comment!! Fantastic pieces!

I have not yet found the book I mentioned...it is a paperback.
"Edged Weapons:Sabres of the Hapsburg Monarchy 16th-20thc"
Jan Sach & Petr Moudry
This is primarily an identification handbook, captioned in three languages, but text is limited.

Victrix, excellent and concise insight regarding the 'hussar' development in these regions, which became the standard for European light cavalry.

I think the notion that the hussars evolved in 'Hungary', as mentioned, is very much as described, as the Hapsburg Empire with Hungary as its epicenter, broadly encompassed so many countries in Europe. Hungary became more of a collective term used descriptively by writers in earlier times.

Also, according to Jan Ostrowski, in "Origins of the Polish Sabre" (1979, p.222 ), "....Hungarian blade production, if it existed at all, must have been very limited, for the 17th c. records tell of blade purchase in mass from Styrian and Italian manufacturers and the great majority of surviving Hungarian sabres have Styrian and Genovese blades often marked with crescent moons and inscription Genoa, Fringia and Francia".

It seems that even with the strong favor for 'Hungarian' blades in Arabia presumed them to be from there, and termed them accordingly 'Magyar' ( though in Arabian of course). I have had Bedouin sabres which were clearly marked with the so called 'Transylvanian knot', essentially talismanic or magic oriented devices and wording.

There is a great deal of colorful and romanticized history of course with the hussar phenomenon in cavalry, and I recall one element which I researched for some time back in the 90s. It had to do with the notching of the blade back near the tip on Austrian cavalry swords. I first saw this in the illustration in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967). There were a number of the line drawings of these swords with this curious notch. Despite efforts with a number of museums noted in his book, there were no viable explanations of this strange but deliberate feature.

Perhaps those of you who have collected and studied these Austrian arms have noticed these, and might have some thoughts?

Salaams Jim, Knowing nothing about this field of weapons I can only add a brilliant book source I discovered whilst looking for the references you give above ...thus I draw members attention to the books illustrated at http://swordsdb.com/SwordsDB_Bibliography.php and hope to improve my library on European swords from that collection...at some point.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Victrix · 15th April 2017, 10:16 PM

Yes Jim, I find the Austro-Hungarian Empire quite fascinating in the way it was polyglot with people marrying each other across ethnic groups and speaking many languages with nationalism (as opposed to patriotism) being essentially a 19thC invention.

I did not know that Magyar swords with "Transylvanian knots" were popular in Arabia. Were the blades produced in Styria and N.Italy and then marketed by Hungarians? Would love to learn more about this topic.

The war in Hungary was very cruel (reading a history book on the subject is a hairraising experience!) with weapons developed to match the intensity of conflict. I'm afraid that notch which you mentioned was designed to inflict maximum damage in the opponent when withdrawing the sword from a stab wound. In Wagner's book on p.339 he writes about a heavy Austrian cavalry broad sword: "The tooth, cut into the back edge, helped 'the old heavers' to aggravate the wound when thrusting, especially when cutting with the back edge of the broadsword, where there was no room or time to put much strength into the cut."

Many thanks to Ibrahiim for providing the sword bibliography where I saw the book by Moudry which Jim mentioned earlier. There was another one about German sword manufacturers which should hopefully cover Styria as well.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2017, 12:26 AM

Wagner indeed mentioned the notion of the notch worsening a wound, which was part of what set me off on a research that lasted years to either confirm or disprove that idea. In a number of cases where museums which held some of the examples Wagner drew from, they concurred with his idea. Others claimed they had no idea, and had in fact taken no notice of this odd feature.
Most research with other resources offered absolutely no sound evidence of any thought given to these notches. One thing was certain...they were deliberately placed in that same location on Austrian blades....not only on the pallasches, but on the sabres (as the Pandour officers sabre c. 1750, Hungarian but in Austrian service) as well.

If these were to worsen a thrust wound, why then on the back of a sabre blade? While sabres were indeed used in a thrust as by French hussars on occasion.....the dilemma of withdrawing a blade literally snagged in the victim seems a problem. This was the reason the notions of saw blade bayonets in thrusting was an issue, as described by Burton (1885).

Actually, Wagner is probably the only person who ever gave these notches a second glance, and enough so he included them in his drawing. There is no mention of notching a blade or its purpose through most narratives and references I have seen. So it remains an unexplained conundrum which seems not to have been effectively noticed by anyone except Wagner..and me

.

It may seem of little importance, but its the kind of thing that really gets me wondering.

Victrix · 16th April 2017, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wagner indeed mentioned the notion of the notch worsening a wound, which was part of what set me off on a research that lasted years to either confirm or disprove that idea. In a number of cases where museums which held some of the examples Wagner drew from, they concurred with his idea. Others claimed they had no idea, and had in fact taken no notice of this odd feature.
Most research with other resources offered absolutely no sound evidence of any thought given to these notches. One thing was certain...they were deliberately placed in that same location on Austrian blades....not only on the pallasches, but on the sabres (as the Pandour officers sabre c. 1750, Hungarian but in Austrian service) as well.

If these were to worsen a thrust wound, why then on the back of a sabre blade? While sabres were indeed used in a thrust as by French hussars on occasion.....the dilemma of withdrawing a blade literally snagged in the victim seems a problem. This was the reason the notions of saw blade bayonets in thrusting was an issue, as described by Burton (1885).

Actually, Wagner is probably the only person who ever gave these notches a second glance, and enough so he included them in his drawing. There is no mention of notching a blade or its purpose through most narratives and references I have seen. So it remains an unexplained conundrum which seems not to have been effectively noticed by anyone except Wagner..and me

.

It may seem of little importance, but its the kind of thing that really gets me wondering.

Jim, you are right that the notches also appear on Austro-Hungarian sabres illustrated in Wagner's book, but he only comments on its function in relation to the broad sword which is why I mentioned this particular case. This brings us to the less palatable and romantic aspect of history. I understand that curved sabre blades are designed to deepen cuts, especially from horseback against unarmoured opponents on foot. I understand that sabres, although really single edged swords designed for cutting, often have a "false" edge on the top edge to facilitate thrusting (especially upwards). This would enable the user to make another strike against an opponent without having to first raise his blade again (losing precious time) for another cut. After using his sabre on horseback for a cut, the hussar would simply thrust his sabre into (possibly another) opponent by raising it in which case the "false" edge would be useful. The notch on the "false" edge would have a nasty effect as the sabre was being withdrawn. The risk for snagging is probably reduced by a single notch and the absence of a barb. Apologies for being so graphic. Saw-toothed bayonets were sometimes issued to engineer troops as multi function tools, but they were frowned on in WWI where German troops ran the risk of summary execution if captured using one.

corrado26 · 16th April 2017, 02:58 PM

Honestly, I have never seen an Austrian/Hungarian husar sabre with a notch on the false edge of ist blade. But what I have seen and have posted fotos of are pallasches with these notches. I have no exakt idea what These notches have been for but one told me that they ease collecting things that had fallen down from horseback.
corrado26

15th April 2017, 10:16 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Jagged tooth/notch Yes Jim, I find the Austro-Hungarian Empire quite fascinating in the way it was polyglot with people marrying each other across ethnic groups and speaking many languages with nationalism (as opposed to patriotism) being essentially a 19thC invention. I did not know that Magyar swords with "Transylvanian knots" were popular in Arabia. Were the blades produced in Styria and N.Italy and then marketed by Hungarians? Would love to learn more about this topic. The war in Hungary was very cruel (reading a history book on the subject is a hairraising experience!) with weapons developed to match the intensity of conflict. I'm afraid that notch which you mentioned was designed to inflict maximum damage in the opponent when withdrawing the sword from a stab wound. In Wagner's book on p.339 he writes about a heavy Austrian cavalry broad sword: "The tooth, cut into the back edge, helped 'the old heavers' to aggravate the wound when thrusting, especially when cutting with the back edge of the broadsword, where there was no room or time to put much strength into the cut." Many thanks to Ibrahiim for providing the sword bibliography where I saw the book by Moudry which Jim mentioned earlier. There was another one about German sword manufacturers which should hopefully cover Styria as well. Last edited by Victrix; 15th April 2017 at 10:51 PM.

16th April 2017, 02:58 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	Honestly, I have never seen an Austrian/Hungarian husar sabre with a notch on the false edge of ist blade. But what I have seen and have posted fotos of are pallasches with these notches. I have no exakt idea what These notches have been for but one told me that they ease collecting things that had fallen down from horseback. corrado26 Attached Images

15th April 2017, 05:23 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I very much second Fernando's comment!! Fantastic pieces! I have not yet found the book I mentioned...it is a paperback. "Edged Weapons:Sabres of the Hapsburg Monarchy 16th-20thc" Jan Sach & Petr Moudry This is primarily an identification handbook, captioned in three languages, but text is limited. Victrix, excellent and concise insight regarding the 'hussar' development in these regions, which became the standard for European light cavalry. I think the notion that the hussars evolved in 'Hungary', as mentioned, is very much as described, as the Hapsburg Empire with Hungary as its epicenter, broadly encompassed so many countries in Europe. Hungary became more of a collective term used descriptively by writers in earlier times. Also, according to Jan Ostrowski, in "Origins of the Polish Sabre" (1979, p.222 ), "....Hungarian blade production, if it existed at all, must have been very limited, for the 17th c. records tell of blade purchase in mass from Styrian and Italian manufacturers and the great majority of surviving Hungarian sabres have Styrian and Genovese blades often marked with crescent moons and inscription Genoa, Fringia and Francia". It seems that even with the strong favor for 'Hungarian' blades in Arabia presumed them to be from there, and termed them accordingly 'Magyar' ( though in Arabian of course). I have had Bedouin sabres which were clearly marked with the so called 'Transylvanian knot', essentially talismanic or magic oriented devices and wording. There is a great deal of colorful and romanticized history of course with the hussar phenomenon in cavalry, and I recall one element which I researched for some time back in the 90s. It had to do with the notching of the blade back near the tip on Austrian cavalry swords. I first saw this in the illustration in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967). There were a number of the line drawings of these swords with this curious notch. Despite efforts with a number of museums noted in his book, there were no viable explanations of this strange but deliberate feature. Perhaps those of you who have collected and studied these Austrian arms have noticed these, and might have some thoughts?

16th April 2017, 12:26 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Wagner indeed mentioned the notion of the notch worsening a wound, which was part of what set me off on a research that lasted years to either confirm or disprove that idea. In a number of cases where museums which held some of the examples Wagner drew from, they concurred with his idea. Others claimed they had no idea, and had in fact taken no notice of this odd feature. Most research with other resources offered absolutely no sound evidence of any thought given to these notches. One thing was certain...they were deliberately placed in that same location on Austrian blades....not only on the pallasches, but on the sabres (as the Pandour officers sabre c. 1750, Hungarian but in Austrian service) as well. If these were to worsen a thrust wound, why then on the back of a sabre blade? While sabres were indeed used in a thrust as by French hussars on occasion.....the dilemma of withdrawing a blade literally snagged in the victim seems a problem. This was the reason the notions of saw blade bayonets in thrusting was an issue, as described by Burton (1885). Actually, Wagner is probably the only person who ever gave these notches a second glance, and enough so he included them in his drawing. There is no mention of notching a blade or its purpose through most narratives and references I have seen. So it remains an unexplained conundrum which seems not to have been effectively noticed by anyone except Wagner..and me . It may seem of little importance, but its the kind of thing that really gets me wondering.