German Executioner's sword Early 17TH century ?

fernando · 14th April 2017, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The actual use of these and to what degree has been debated, suggesting that by 17th century, this means of execution was not actually as widely employed as thought...

This being one perspective, Jim. Looking at records of executions by the sword in a city of a small European country, for one, between the XV and XVIII centuries, the numbers shown for the 1700's far from from being scarce.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilUK

...As for Fernando's comment about the cross-guard: it could serve to prevent the user's hands from slipping down onto the blade, and also if the recipient of justice (the victim/criminal) is sentenced to 'die by the sword' then the instrument has to look like a sword! even if it is not a real weapon. Just my thoughts.

I wouldn't go for the first theory, Neil; the gesture applied in these 'non weapon' swords is not that of thrusting, hence no slipping down taking place. But i would well accept the second suggestion, as making good sense. Actually it is rather plausible that middle age executions were performed with ordinary swords, these 'fashionable' implements having not yet been developed.
Even in such later years these things were not compelled to follow period styling, as represented by an example kept in the Oporto Military Museum, which hosts the Araújo collection. See the swordish hilt and the face to face half moon symbols in the ricasso, a posture away from simbolizing the sordid purposes of these things.

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Jim McDougall · 20th April 2017, 07:54 AM

[QUOTE=fernando]This being one perspective, Jim. Looking at records of executions by the sword in a city of a small European country, for one, between the XV and XVIII centuries, the numbers shown for the 1700's far from from being scarce.

Fernando sorry I missed this, and not responding. Actually in further checking I found you are quite right, the numbers of cases of this form of capital punishment are far more prevalent in Europe than I had thought in the 18th century. It does seem they were situated more in the East European sectors but that may not be entirely accurate.

Philip · 21st April 2017, 07:46 AM

1. In some places and times, decapitation with a sword was reserved for condemned persons of noble lineage. Pre-revolutionary France was one example; commoners were put to death by hanging, breaking on the wheel, or other means. (French swordsmen were famed for their skill and their job was often handed down through generations, the Sansons were perhaps the most renowned). I'm sure the backstory of Anne Boleyn's unfortunate demise is well known to readers so I won't relate it again here. Interesting to note that in Switzerland, a land of non-royal government, this distinction was not made -- Peter Nied in "Scharf Gerichtet" (SCHWERT UND KLINGE, Vol. 13, 2011, pp 96-7) notes that the last Swiss witch executed with a sword met her end in 1782.

2. The different German states switched to the ax, or guillotine (Fallbeil) at various times during the 19th cent., the last beheading with sword was in Munich in 1854, and it was a public event (refer to above article). You can compare this with some oriental countries like Thailand and China, which continued that practice in public until the early 20th cent., and of course Saudi Arabia at present.

Cerjak · 26th August 2017, 08:41 PM

In the GRAVENSTEEN castle in Gent.
There is 7 Executioner swords in the GRAVENSTEEN castle but no one with holes on the tip.

fernando · 27th August 2017, 05:41 PM

Bonjour, Jean-Luc,
Probably (surely) the type to be hung upside down on the wall was not a fashion of this castle armoury

.
I never realized that such quantity of this kind of swords was needed to do the job; sure those were busy days

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Victrix · 27th August 2017, 06:26 PM

Bit worrying to see one of the swords missing from its place on the board... I hope that it's not in use as we write this!

fernando · 27th August 2017, 08:11 PM

Most certainly

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Cerjak · 27th August 2017, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Bonjour, Jean-Luc,
Probably (surely) the type to be hung upside down on the wall was not a fashion of this castle armoury

.
I never realized that such quantity of this kind of swords was needed to do the job; sure those were busy days

.

Hi Fernando,

I Heard many other explanations concerning this holes and it seems that nobody has the same.

Best

Jean-Luc

21st April 2017, 07:46 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Some notes on the use of the sword in executions 1. In some places and times, decapitation with a sword was reserved for condemned persons of noble lineage. Pre-revolutionary France was one example; commoners were put to death by hanging, breaking on the wheel, or other means. (French swordsmen were famed for their skill and their job was often handed down through generations, the Sansons were perhaps the most renowned). I'm sure the backstory of Anne Boleyn's unfortunate demise is well known to readers so I won't relate it again here. Interesting to note that in Switzerland, a land of non-royal government, this distinction was not made -- Peter Nied in "Scharf Gerichtet" (SCHWERT UND KLINGE, Vol. 13, 2011, pp 96-7) notes that the last Swiss witch executed with a sword met her end in 1782. 2. The different German states switched to the ax, or guillotine (Fallbeil) at various times during the 19th cent., the last beheading with sword was in Munich in 1854, and it was a public event (refer to above article). You can compare this with some oriental countries like Thailand and China, which continued that practice in public until the early 20th cent., and of course Saudi Arabia at present.

26th August 2017, 08:41 PM	#4
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	In the GRAVENSTEEN castle in Gent. In the GRAVENSTEEN castle in Gent. There is 7 Executioner swords in the GRAVENSTEEN castle but no one with holes on the tip. Attached Images

20th April 2017, 07:54 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	[QUOTE=fernando]This being one perspective, Jim. Looking at records of executions by the sword in a city of a small European country, for one, between the XV and XVIII centuries, the numbers shown for the 1700's far from from being scarce. Fernando sorry I missed this, and not responding. Actually in further checking I found you are quite right, the numbers of cases of this form of capital punishment are far more prevalent in Europe than I had thought in the 18th century. It does seem they were situated more in the East European sectors but that may not be entirely accurate.

27th August 2017, 05:41 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bonjour, Jean-Luc, Probably (surely) the type to be hung upside down on the wall was not a fashion of this castle armoury . I never realized that such quantity of this kind of swords was needed to do the job; sure those were busy days .

27th August 2017, 06:26 PM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 763	Bit worrying to see one of the swords missing from its place on the board... I hope that it's not in use as we write this!

27th August 2017, 08:11 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Most certainly .