(said to be) newly found old keris

Jean · 13th April 2017, 09:29 AM

Very good restoration job!

Rick · 13th April 2017, 03:32 PM

These three were found together in the same place?

mariusgmioc · 13th April 2017, 04:10 PM

Very interesting how there is a vestigeal mendak fused to the pesi, but there are are no traces of vestigeal hilts... just to mention one of the things I find suspicious.

To me these blades have been artificially aged.

But maybe I am too paranoid.

David · 13th April 2017, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Very interesting how there is a vestigeal mendak fused to the pesi, but there are are no traces of vestigeal hilts... just to mention one of the things I find suspicious.

To me these blades have been artificially aged.

But maybe I am too paranoid.

Marius, what do you mean by "vestigial" hilts. This style of keris did not have intrinsic iron hilts like keris sajen. The hilts on this type of keris would most likely be wood which would not survive long periods of time (centuries) buried in the earth.

That doesn't remove all suspicion from these pieces, but i cannot see the lack of any remains of the hilt as cause for that suspicion.

mariusgmioc · 13th April 2017, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Marius, what do you mean by "vestigial" hilts. This style of keris did not have intrinsic iron hilts like keris sajen. The hilts on this type of keris would most likely be wood which would not survive long periods of time (centuries) buried in the earth.

That doesn't remove all suspicion from these pieces, but i cannot see the lack of any remains of the hilt as cause for that suspicion.

By vestigial hilts, I meant some vestiges of old wooden hilts. Generally even rotten wood leaves some traces and definitely unevenly corroded pesis. Moreover, some hardwoods are very resistant to rotting and can survive hundreds of years in soil.

However, it is rather difficult to judge without having them in the hand... and enen then it may be hard to tell for sure.

Jean · 13th April 2017, 08:12 PM

Old or artificially aged? This type of blade is a typical dilemma for the collectors and they are not sold cheap. Personally I would vote for artificially aged as the corrosion is quite uniform but would like to hear Alan's opinion.

If I am correct, the maker did his best to lure us (square pesi, metuk, blade shape, ricikan, etc).
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 13th April 2017, 11:41 PM

During the 1970's and 1980's, in Solo, keris buda were pretty scarce.

Sometimes years would pass before I heard of, or saw a KB that had recently surfaced.

In recent years newly discovered KB's seem to pop up with rather boring regularity.

According to what I have been told by people I have very good reason to trust, KB's were sometimes found in company with other objects or value, for example bronze bells, bronze finials, gold jewellery, even iron tools. This finding of what could probably be called "troves" generated the idea that these items of value were intentionally buried in order to avoid them being stolen by bandits. It is established historical fact that bands of bandits roamed the rural areas of Jawa until not all that long ago, perhaps in one sense, they still do. In any case, the people who buried these objects did not return to release them from the earth, and people from a later time found them, washed them off, in the case of bronze they nearly always destroyed value of the object by polishing or by scratching and testing to see if it was gold.

In about 1985 one of the dealers in Solo had a box of iron tools mixed with sundry bronze objects, that had been found in a newly developed rice field. I bought most of the contents of this box, no keris or weapons were included. The best of the tools and bronze objects I cleaned and still have, the iron that was past restoration I welded into a billet which was subsequently stolen.

During the 1960's and probably into the early 1970's, smiths who lived in a village near Jogja used to source some of their material from a burial site that dated from a much earlier time.

There is a belief that after Islam had established a foothold in Jawa and had begun its process of domination, some people buried objects that were believed to hold a strong association with the previous Hindu-Buddhist belief system.

Sometimes a volcanic eruption would bury a house, or a village , and this would result in objects being buried in ash or in mud.

So objects were buried, for a number of reasons. The deposits that adhere to these objects vary accordingly. When a person with scant knowledge of antiquities and the parameters that govern their value finds these buried objects they frequently try to clean the objects up a bit, prior to selling in a local market, thus if the material that adheres to an object at the time of discovery, is still there at the time it is sold to a dealer, this does raise questions in my mind.

In respect of the three objects under discussion here, I regret I am unable to provide any opinion at all. I do note that the perceived colour of the deposit adhering to the bottom object is a different colour to the colour of the other two objects, this different, slightly yellowish colour seems to indicate the presence of sulphur, which raises further questions.

An interesting set of photographs, and perhaps an update to records.

13th April 2017, 04:10 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Very interesting how there is a vestigeal mendak fused to the pesi, but there are are no traces of vestigeal hilts... just to mention one of the things I find suspicious. To me these blades have been artificially aged. But maybe I am too paranoid. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 13th April 2017 at 05:50 PM.

13th April 2017, 09:29 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Very good restoration job!

13th April 2017, 03:32 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	These three were found together in the same place?

13th April 2017, 08:12 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Old or artificially aged? This type of blade is a typical dilemma for the collectors and they are not sold cheap. Personally I would vote for artificially aged as the corrosion is quite uniform but would like to hear Alan's opinion. If I am correct, the maker did his best to lure us (square pesi, metuk, blade shape, ricikan, etc). Regards

13th April 2017, 11:41 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	During the 1970's and 1980's, in Solo, keris buda were pretty scarce. Sometimes years would pass before I heard of, or saw a KB that had recently surfaced. In recent years newly discovered KB's seem to pop up with rather boring regularity. According to what I have been told by people I have very good reason to trust, KB's were sometimes found in company with other objects or value, for example bronze bells, bronze finials, gold jewellery, even iron tools. This finding of what could probably be called "troves" generated the idea that these items of value were intentionally buried in order to avoid them being stolen by bandits. It is established historical fact that bands of bandits roamed the rural areas of Jawa until not all that long ago, perhaps in one sense, they still do. In any case, the people who buried these objects did not return to release them from the earth, and people from a later time found them, washed them off, in the case of bronze they nearly always destroyed value of the object by polishing or by scratching and testing to see if it was gold. In about 1985 one of the dealers in Solo had a box of iron tools mixed with sundry bronze objects, that had been found in a newly developed rice field. I bought most of the contents of this box, no keris or weapons were included. The best of the tools and bronze objects I cleaned and still have, the iron that was past restoration I welded into a billet which was subsequently stolen. During the 1960's and probably into the early 1970's, smiths who lived in a village near Jogja used to source some of their material from a burial site that dated from a much earlier time. There is a belief that after Islam had established a foothold in Jawa and had begun its process of domination, some people buried objects that were believed to hold a strong association with the previous Hindu-Buddhist belief system. Sometimes a volcanic eruption would bury a house, or a village , and this would result in objects being buried in ash or in mud. So objects were buried, for a number of reasons. The deposits that adhere to these objects vary accordingly. When a person with scant knowledge of antiquities and the parameters that govern their value finds these buried objects they frequently try to clean the objects up a bit, prior to selling in a local market, thus if the material that adheres to an object at the time of discovery, is still there at the time it is sold to a dealer, this does raise questions in my mind. In respect of the three objects under discussion here, I regret I am unable to provide any opinion at all. I do note that the perceived colour of the deposit adhering to the bottom object is a different colour to the colour of the other two objects, this different, slightly yellowish colour seems to indicate the presence of sulphur, which raises further questions. An interesting set of photographs, and perhaps an update to records.