The flowers on the tulwar hilts

Jim McDougall · 4th April 2017, 04:49 PM

"...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendencies of a period".
Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber
"Jahrbuch des Kunsthistorischen"
Museums in Wien 1937-1955
As cited in p.73, "Imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor
from the State of Styria"
Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992

Q.E.D.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th April 2017, 09:20 PM

I thought I had dug up an excellent reference when I stumbled upon the book by Amina Okada ~ "Imperial Mughal Painters" however it contained only half a dozen lightweight references somewhat unrelated to the central theme I have worked into this thread relating to Daro Shikoh...I did however rumble into one fact that Daro's son was captured by the forces of Aurangazeb and imprisoned whereupon he was slowly poisoned to death by poppies being soaked in water with which he had to drink...
Another powerful flower pictorially was the Lilly shown below with Shah Jehan along with a Firangi straight sword .

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th April 2017, 05:50 PM

Perhaps a glance at similar decorative style to floral may indicate a sister to floral technique ~ That of sunburst ...Please see http://shastardhari.com/blog/ for an excellent rendition of the intricate sunburst design to certain tribal sword pommels. Quote" Sunburst symbology is often seen on Indian swords, shields and battle standards, it represents the ‘Sooraj Bansi’ or the Sun Dynasty of the Vedic warrior god Rama Avtar, the embodiment of the Kshatriya warrior." Unquote.

Shown below; Sunburst pommel designs.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th April 2017, 09:38 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim for bringing this link to our attention.
It is interesting reading, but unfortunately the author does only say that it is so, he does not give any evidence why it is so.
I think that when someone with an Indian name writes something, most believe in it, but I would like some more proof - why and from where does he know it?
As the author lives in the 21st century and not in the 17th or 18th century, he must give some proof of from where he has his knowledge.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th April 2017, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thank you Ibrahiim for bringing this link to our attention.
It is interesting reading, but unfortunately the author does only say that it is so, he does not give any evidence why it is so.
I think that when someone with an Indian name writes something, most believe in it, but I would like some more proof - why and from where does he know it?
As the author lives in the 21st century and not in the 17th or 18th century, he must give some proof of from where he has his knowledge.

I have to agree ..I was a bit despondent having ploughed through the entire works but the support work on Shah Jehan and on the painter fraternity of the Mughals was interesting.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th April 2017, 04:50 PM

Ibrahiim, researching means reading a lot, and a lot is of no 'interest', but all the same one learns something, and remembers most of it - hopefully:-).
The suns shown on the discs look quite different, and have a different number of rays, but I have not yet started to look into this part.

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2017, 05:49 PM

Research indeed is reading a lot for many, or for some, like myself, a great deal of 'browsing', and many findings are through pure serendipity. While using systematic approach in a networking type manner in order to reach key areas where context might hold clues or important data, sometimes those details are found in completely unrelated searches.

In some of the decoration and motif in Indian arms there do seem to be variations in the number of elements in images portrayed such as petals, or rays in the case of solar representation. However as far as I know, there has not been proof found that numeric instance is significant as far as certain symbolism etc. It is tempting to consider that there is such significance imbued, but aesthetics become a strong possibility as well. Some such things we may never know as the work changed in imitation over generations and what the original artisan intended is unknown.

7th April 2017, 09:20 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I thought I had dug up an excellent reference when I stumbled upon the book by Amina Okada ~ "Imperial Mughal Painters" however it contained only half a dozen lightweight references somewhat unrelated to the central theme I have worked into this thread relating to Daro Shikoh...I did however rumble into one fact that Daro's son was captured by the forces of Aurangazeb and imprisoned whereupon he was slowly poisoned to death by poppies being soaked in water with which he had to drink... Another powerful flower pictorially was the Lilly shown below with Shah Jehan along with a Firangi straight sword . Attached Images

8th April 2017, 05:50 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Perhaps a glance at similar decorative style to floral may indicate a sister to floral technique ~ That of sunburst ...Please see http://shastardhari.com/blog/ for an excellent rendition of the intricate sunburst design to certain tribal sword pommels. Quote" Sunburst symbology is often seen on Indian swords, shields and battle standards, it represents the ‘Sooraj Bansi’ or the Sun Dynasty of the Vedic warrior god Rama Avtar, the embodiment of the Kshatriya warrior." Unquote. Shown below; Sunburst pommel designs. Attached Images

4th April 2017, 04:49 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,352	"...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendencies of a period". Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber "Jahrbuch des Kunsthistorischen" Museums in Wien 1937-1955 As cited in p.73, "Imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor from the State of Styria" Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992 Q.E.D.

8th April 2017, 09:38 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Ibrahiim for bringing this link to our attention. It is interesting reading, but unfortunately the author does only say that it is so, he does not give any evidence why it is so. I think that when someone with an Indian name writes something, most believe in it, but I would like some more proof - why and from where does he know it? As the author lives in the 21st century and not in the 17th or 18th century, he must give some proof of from where he has his knowledge.

9th April 2017, 04:50 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahiim, researching means reading a lot, and a lot is of no 'interest', but all the same one learns something, and remembers most of it - hopefully:-). The suns shown on the discs look quite different, and have a different number of rays, but I have not yet started to look into this part.

9th April 2017, 05:49 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,352	Research indeed is reading a lot for many, or for some, like myself, a great deal of 'browsing', and many findings are through pure serendipity. While using systematic approach in a networking type manner in order to reach key areas where context might hold clues or important data, sometimes those details are found in completely unrelated searches. In some of the decoration and motif in Indian arms there do seem to be variations in the number of elements in images portrayed such as petals, or rays in the case of solar representation. However as far as I know, there has not been proof found that numeric instance is significant as far as certain symbolism etc. It is tempting to consider that there is such significance imbued, but aesthetics become a strong possibility as well. Some such things we may never know as the work changed in imitation over generations and what the original artisan intended is unknown.