A rapier by Pietro Hernandez

[Jim McDougall]

In my previous post, I neglected to respond to Fernando's well placed note on observing on swords such as this much agreed, very nice example posted by Jean Luc....in that our focus on the markings on the blade may very well be quite independent of the circumstances of the hilt.

Swords, particularly rapiers, were often refurbished numbers of times in their working lives, and these instances may have been to repair a damaged sword; to refurbish a blade with a new hilt aligned with changes in style or fashion. ..these were not only weapons, but status oriented accoutrements.

While the most common reason, other than damage or change in fashion, may have been a heirloom blade, there are numbers of cases where old hilts much more vintage than the blade are used. These cases are seen in a number of the swords in the Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962), where an 18th century German blade is mounted on a 17th century Spanish hilt etc.

When AVB Norman wrote his "The Rapier and Small Sword" in 1980, he noted that his focus was on the styling of the hilts, as blades were mostly a matter of trade and various acquisition while hilts were local and personal preference. He innovatively used portraiture primarily and some other art to establish the period and general locations for various hilt styles, and much in the same manner attended to pommels. The pommels are another hilt element subject to variation and acquisition often separate from its other components.

Therefore our observations on this blade may well be entirely incongruent with the hilt, thus provenance for the separate components might be notably different, even from different countries and periods.

[fernando]

Hi Jim, i just meant to say that Socrates knew nothing about these swords ... but he sure was a brain in other areas .

Just before jean-Luc decides he had enough of this hijacking his thread, let me post some loose notes on Pedro Hernandez.

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Starting by the sword sample of Jean-Luc we may discern the inscription in thr blade as being PIETRO HERNAN, one of the names variations connotated with the master, eventually one seen in two swords at the Instituto Valencioa de Don Juan, # 68 and 70. Being this collecction and sponsor of great prestige, one should consider this name variation to be a genuine one.
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Being of general knowledge that Italy and Spain interchanged in the period, among other stuff, sword blades, one may easily guess the logic in the two directions; Spanish blades moving to Italy due to their quality and those from Italy moving to Spain due to their medium/low cost. Assuming that blades would not serve final clients by their own, one may clearly realize that they would be imported with the purpose to garnish them with hilts (and scabbards) before being introduced in the market. While in the case of Italians mounting Spanish blades with local hilts, one may admit that they went on sale with high prices with all justice, we may guess (guess) how deceptive or trasparent would be the business with Spanish swords mounted with Italian blades.
Do not forget that, the difference in price between Spanish blades and those of other regions was dramatic.
According to Rafael M. Girón Pascual, in his work "Cruzando aceros", price of blades in reales, between 1627 - 1680, were the following per origin:

Toledo ....... 24 - 30
Germany ... 13 - 18
Toulouse
& France ... 11 - 11
Génova ...... 9 - 10

So far so good but, what one might not expect is who was importing these Itaian blades in Spain to increase their value were not general traders but actual smiths (Espaderos).... and prestigious ones.
See an example of Italian blades imported in Toledo between 1587-1621:
.

Year -Quantity -Origin ------------- ----Seller --------------------Buyer ------------------------Price in reales
.
1587 ... 338 ... Génova ................ Ansaldo ...............Pedro Hernández, espadero .......... ?
1590 ... 360 ... Génova ... Bocangelino y Baba ........... Pedro Hernández, espadero ........... 4

1593 ... 250 ... Milán ...... Juan Bautista Dosio ........... Lorenzo de la Fuente, espadero .......... ?
1621 ... 200 ... Génova ... Esteban Cebolín y A. Dungo ........ Francisco Díaz, espadero ......... 4,5

This information is enequivocal, as may be read in "La Monarquia Hispanica en tiempos del Quijote", there is an obligation of Pedro Hernandez, espadero in favor of Bocangelino-Baba, for the buying of two bales with 360 blades from Genova, at price 4 reales each, to be paid in two instalments, three and six months.
---
According to Don Enrique de Leguina, en "Los Maestros Espaderos", containing an extensive list of smiths from all cities, we may read:
Hernández (Pedro) or Pietro (?). Sevilla. XVI century. Mark: big cross with two equal arms.
(Besides the two Sebastians father and son, not referenced as being Pedro's family).
Also we spot Pedro Hernandez in J. Gestaso Y Perez work, an epic compendium of all craftsmen of Seville, listing this espadero as having died in 1596. This is somehow confusing as Pedro was importing blades in Toledo 1590.
Could it be a different Pedro ... or has he first moved to Toledo and later came back to Seville for his last days?
And the 'Pietro' alias; was it because Pedro trade with Italy made him adopt such 'second' name ?.
Riddle, riddle, riddle


.

[fernando]

Sorry my ignorance but, looking at Jean-Luc's sword grip, we see that the ferrules are not the traditional turks heads. Could this be another period 'locking' version in its genuine wired grip? .

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely outstanding detail and research Fernando!!!! Thank you!!!
Thank you as well for the explanation on the quote, these pithy philosophical axioms in Latin can be pretty cryptic.

Actually I am unclear on how this discussion is 'hijacking' this thread, as we are covering material which directly applies to the name inscribed on this blade, in variant manner, markings, the hilt styling etc.. The fact that we are adding detailed material on the circumstances of the times, conventions in use in application of marks and names and the very economic climate of the times which might bring certain conditions to bear.

While examining items posted by participants here for comment, it seems that observation and discussion, as we have shared here and on others have given us remarkable historic perspective through these very items.
In the case of these Spanish swords, you have shared amazing detail from resources most of us have no access to, and kindly translated and qualified the material to help us understand these weapons better.

Again, my sincere thanks, and I am getting writers cramp from furiously adding all this to my sheaves of notes!

P.S on the unusual ferrules.....I hadn't noticed! The plot thickens!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... P.S. on the unusual ferrules.....I hadn't noticed! The plot thickens!

I was thinking of posting my rapier to discussed Jean-Luc's example, as to presume both hilts have significant similarity. Mine is clearly marked and signed Alonzo Simon, a Toledo master recorded in 1608-1617.
Perhaps the grip wiring and the turk's heads are not the original; you never know, with folks out there able to re-do these things so well.
Speaking of hilts not being original to the blades, i came across an essay by Virgilio Martinez Enamorado on the protocol sword of Nasrid Sultan Muhammed V (1338-1391), which blade has epic inscriptions, those apparently trancribed in the walls of the Alhambra Patio de los Arraianes. When it came to comment on the sword hilt assumedly not being the original one, the author reminds the Arab concept in that (in my words), it is the blade that has primary significance and not the hilt, as also in man is not his turbant that counts but the man himself.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Fernando! So it is a 'Z' QED!!!!
NO, not 'Zorro'!!! but compelling to think of Zaragoza!!!
There are numbers of initials used which do not seem to necessarily align with the Christian names of the master using the punzon, so that I must look into more.

Your example is amazing as well! and the pommel indeed very much is like Jean Luc's only truncated. As you note, turks heads are often later added, much like changing gaskets when valve cover is off on engine.
On that note.....that analogy is outstanding on hilt/blade.... and well placed in present context.......not the TURBAN but the man.....not the hilt....but the blade!!!

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Jim, i just meant to say that Socrates knew nothing about swords ... but he sure was a brain in other areas .

As a veteran of several battles, in which he served with distinction, he must have known a thing or two about them…

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Andreas

... As a veteran of several battles, in which he served with distinction, he must have known a thing or two about them…

Yes, Andreas, i should/could have said these sords but, in the context, i took it that my expression would be considered accordingly; i appologize for such flaw .
I realize that Socrates, not being a military by career, but appointed General for the Peloponese wars, due to his ascendence abilities, would have had serious engagements with his high end κοπίς , and has even realized that, the evolution of such Kopis woud turn into the Iberian falcata but, would have hardly envisaged the characteristics of the Iberian rapiers, that appeared two thousand years afterwards.
In any case, and for the record, i will edit my previous post, so that pointed contingencies don't prevail .

[Foxbat]

I believe the sword in question is a composite piece, the guard appears to be an Italian munition-grade one, the blade is of better quality. One most likely could see non-original peening on the pommel.

Fernando's rapier seems to be an all-original solid piece of good quality. Would be nice to see the blade.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

I believe the sword in question is a composite piece, the guard appears to be an Italian munition-grade one, the blade is of better quality. One most likely could see non-original peening on the pommel.

Fernando's rapier seems to be an all-original solid piece of good quality. Would be nice to see the blade.

Composite ?
The blade is fitting perfectly like a glove in the quillon block .
There is no sign that the blade and hilt have been separated The tang button seem perfect as it should be.
The rest of gilding decoration on the hilt and pommel in order to have a nice looking hilt to match with this beautiful blade.
The style of hilt and blade are both correct for period and can be from the same period.
Other German rapier with beautiful blade in the MET.
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...ch/34787?img=1
BEST

CERJAK

[Foxbat]

The one in the last picture is a very different sword.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

... Fernando's rapier seems to be an all-original solid piece of good quality. Would be nice to see the blade.

Lousy pictures; not so good as those taken by Jean-Luc

[Foxbat]

Very nice rapier, I have a somewhat similar piece.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Lousy pictures; not so good as those taken by Jean-Luc

Fernando

In Portugal you have sun so good light ,you should try with day light.
Or you could send me your best swords but I'm not sure that I will send you back !

Best
Jean-Luc