See if you can figure these marks out

ingelred · 3rd March 2006, 09:03 PM

Hello Ian,

I think, I will keep it in my collection.
After removing the paint it tends out to be a nice little knife.
Especially the brass (?) inlay (it is neither painted nor koftgari) in the blade is very nice.

Hello Valjhun,

yes, the knife has some similarities to a Bosnian bichaq.
I got two in my collection, one with the inscription "Sarajewo 1890".
Concerning the knife You had a link to, this knife is to may best knowledge not a Bosnian knife but a knife from South Tyrol.
These knives are called "Trudenmesser", "Drudenmesser", "Drudenschneid", "Neunkreuzermesser" etc.
These knives had a talismanic meaning to the local people and should protect them against evil spirits.
They share some similarities to South German "Furmannsbestecke" (waggoner's cutlery).
There was an article about these knives in the German Messermagazin recently.
I have just found this link.
scroll down and You will see one "Trudenmesser".

http://www.museumonline.at/2002/hs-w...eum-ritual.htm

By the way, very nice knife, Valjhun.

Best regards, Helge

RobT · 4th March 2006, 03:01 AM

Hi Alan 62, inglered, and Valjhun,
Alan 62 the pichok site you posted is much appreciated (I copied it out for my library immediately). Thanks also to ingelred for the information on the Germanic forms. Given the morphological similarities between the pichok and the trudenmesser, what is most intriguing is the link between the protective magical qualities attributed to both. Could it be that the pichok and trudenmesser represent a reinterpretation of the same blade across ethnic and religious barriers? If we further consider the Turkish bichak, the Greek machiara, and the Coorg pichangati to be related, the geographical scope of this blade type is impressive indeed. To go even further, the Canary Isle (aka Mediterranian) knife bears more than a little similarity to this group. If the Gaucho facon and the Brazilian faca da ponta are considered new world offspring of those Mediterranian blades then the lineage of this knife stretches from Malabar to Uzbekestan to the former Yugoslavia to the Mediterranian to western Europe to the new world. Whew! Could the above conjecture be correct? If it is, even the jambiya can't lay claim to a greater geographical range and it certainly can't claim an equal cross cultural/religious acceptance. On a more mundane level, I understand that messer means knife but what does truden (druden), neunkreuzer and schneid mean?
Sincerely,
RobT

Alan62 · 4th March 2006, 03:38 AM

Interesting thought RobT

ingelred · 4th March 2006, 06:50 PM

Hello RobT,

"Druden" or "Truden" are evil spirits or persons (mostly women) possesed by evil spirits. These evil spirits or persons were made responsible for nightmares. To protect the sleeping persons the "trudenmesser" was punched innthe bed-head. Other names are "Drudenfeitel", were "Feitel" is local (Austrian, Bavarian or South Tyrolian) word for knife. "Neunkreuzer" means nine crosses. This is because the "Trudenmesser" the blade was often adorned with seven or nine. Also these knives often had Christian mottoes and 7 or INRI punched into the blade. I did not mention it before have two "Trudenmesser" in my collection (no fotos because I am a bad photographer), one a folding knife and one fixed just like the one of Alan62 but not that beautiful. Actually the previous owner had polished and sharpened it

Geetings, Helge

4th March 2006, 03:01 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 550	Magical Morphological Connection Hi Alan 62, inglered, and Valjhun, Alan 62 the pichok site you posted is much appreciated (I copied it out for my library immediately). Thanks also to ingelred for the information on the Germanic forms. Given the morphological similarities between the pichok and the trudenmesser, what is most intriguing is the link between the protective magical qualities attributed to both. Could it be that the pichok and trudenmesser represent a reinterpretation of the same blade across ethnic and religious barriers? If we further consider the Turkish bichak, the Greek machiara, and the Coorg pichangati to be related, the geographical scope of this blade type is impressive indeed. To go even further, the Canary Isle (aka Mediterranian) knife bears more than a little similarity to this group. If the Gaucho facon and the Brazilian faca da ponta are considered new world offspring of those Mediterranian blades then the lineage of this knife stretches from Malabar to Uzbekestan to the former Yugoslavia to the Mediterranian to western Europe to the new world. Whew! Could the above conjecture be correct? If it is, even the jambiya can't lay claim to a greater geographical range and it certainly can't claim an equal cross cultural/religious acceptance. On a more mundane level, I understand that messer means knife but what does truden (druden), neunkreuzer and schneid mean? Sincerely, RobT

3rd March 2006, 09:03 PM	#1
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Hello Ian, I think, I will keep it in my collection. After removing the paint it tends out to be a nice little knife. Especially the brass (?) inlay (it is neither painted nor koftgari) in the blade is very nice. Hello Valjhun, yes, the knife has some similarities to a Bosnian bichaq. I got two in my collection, one with the inscription "Sarajewo 1890". Concerning the knife You had a link to, this knife is to may best knowledge not a Bosnian knife but a knife from South Tyrol. These knives are called "Trudenmesser", "Drudenmesser", "Drudenschneid", "Neunkreuzermesser" etc. These knives had a talismanic meaning to the local people and should protect them against evil spirits. They share some similarities to South German "Furmannsbestecke" (waggoner's cutlery). There was an article about these knives in the German Messermagazin recently. I have just found this link. scroll down and You will see one "Trudenmesser". http://www.museumonline.at/2002/hs-w...eum-ritual.htm By the way, very nice knife, Valjhun. Best regards, Helge

4th March 2006, 03:38 AM	#3
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Interesting thought RobT

4th March 2006, 06:50 PM	#4
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Hello RobT, "Druden" or "Truden" are evil spirits or persons (mostly women) possesed by evil spirits. These evil spirits or persons were made responsible for nightmares. To protect the sleeping persons the "trudenmesser" was punched innthe bed-head. Other names are "Drudenfeitel", were "Feitel" is local (Austrian, Bavarian or South Tyrolian) word for knife. "Neunkreuzer" means nine crosses. This is because the "Trudenmesser" the blade was often adorned with seven or nine. Also these knives often had Christian mottoes and 7 or INRI punched into the blade. I did not mention it before have two "Trudenmesser" in my collection (no fotos because I am a bad photographer), one a folding knife and one fixed just like the one of Alan62 but not that beautiful. Actually the previous owner had polished and sharpened it Geetings, Helge