What Will Happen

fernando · 21st March 2017, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machinist

... Having a good database would be of help if I suffered a theft also. ..

I think this is a must, by all means ...
Mine is composed of:

#
TYPE OF WEAPON
COUNTRY OF ORIGIN
MODEL
SERIAL NUMBERS
MARKS/INSCRIPTIONS
SELLER
AGE
THOROUGHEST DESCRIPTION
PRICE BOUGHT
YEAR BOUGHT
HYPERLINK TO PHOTOS LIBRARY.

I have opted for price bought as i take it this is vital to register the actual value you paid for as then, eventually from there, you may build a theoretical selling price, depending on the context; in my case a price to loose, as i am no shrewd buyer at all.

.

Lee · 21st March 2017, 05:36 PM

The happiest situation, of course, is when the collector has deserving and interested relatives and or friends who would appreciate and maintain the collection, but I fear this is not a common outcome.

Similarly, the vast majority of the items in our collections are unlikely to be of interest to museums for inclusion into their collections and display. They can only absorb so much.

This means that the majority of our collections will find their way back into the marketplace and ultimately into new collections as the cycle completes another turn. This is not bad as this is where most of our own collections came from.

Unfortunately, preserving the monetary value of the collection upon dispersal for the collector's heirs will be difficult if possible. When items have been held for a good long time and have not fallen from popularity (or have been wrongly stigmatized and blocked from sale as is the current case of items with ivory content in many jurisdictions) natural price appreciation and the background of inflation will mask the expenses and trauma of transfer.

Sale by auction has been favored in the comments above and given the correct venue and a decent turnout may be the highest yielding 'turnkey' solution. Still, for most items, auction prices are likely to lag behind retail gallery prices, partially because the buyer must account for an obscene 15 to 25% (or thereabouts buyer's commission) beyond what the seller's commission will take. In any case expect, on a 'good' day at auction, that something like about a third of the value will be absorbed by the transfer process. With penalties for 'high' reserves, setting a reserve can provide only so much protection.

Selling to a dealer is another solution that may provide a quick and relatively easy 'turnkey' solution. However, one reality that many collectors may not realize until they try to sell in bulk is that a buying dealer must tie up their capital in the collection and it may take a lot of work, ancillary expenses and years to sell. This means that one should expect only 25 to 50% of the price that the dealer eventually hopes to realize. As some of you recoil in horror, let me advise you (from my own adventures as a 'limited instruction set specialist antique dealer') that the dealer is very likely going to earn that markup. At least with this option your heirs do know what you will get 'up front'!

You, your family or a friend of the family can always try the DIY (do it yourself) option and work through the collection via online sales or sales at gun shows and achieve a low retail return if you have the time and patience. You will surely earn the improved return with many hours of labor and you should go into such a plan with your eyes open as to issues with online sales hosts and their policies that may leave you hanging or 'crushed under the bus'.

Our deceased forums moderator Lew Waldman left his family with a written ledger book for about half of his collection with inventory numbers, a description and some of his thoughts about each item and an estimate of value. Doing so has increased their recovery of his collection's value. A database is great for the collector (and Fernando has covered what needs to be included above) but I would advise there also being a paper copy of the information just in case the family is less computer adept or the password for the well-encrypted file dies with you. (After all the file includes the greatest secret a collector will likely have kept from their loved ones - namely how much they have invested in their collection!) I have no one to keep this information from, and yet I still greatly restrict its dissemination. I have sternly warned my next of kin to find my records before disposing of anything - whichever option you choose they will need to have this information to intelligently assess their options! So, perhaps a private (only your name and signature) safe deposit box for your records of provenance, receipts, etc. and only a note they will find telling them where to find the key once they have a death certificate to present with it at the bank.

A. G. Maisey · 21st March 2017, 10:14 PM

Everything that Lee has written, I endorse 100%.

Several years ago, a lifelong friend of mine, who was a very serious collector of Eastern edged weapons, received his promotion to a higher realm. He had always told me in conversation that he intended his collection to be sold back into the market after his promotion --- in his words:- "for the benefit of my fellow collectors" --- and that he had entrusted this task to his heirs. He had prepared a record of:- year purchased, amount paid, description, together with a photo of each piece.

Now, several years later, that very large collection is packed into cardboard boxes in the under-floor space of his heir's home. To the best of my knowledge no attempt has been made to put this collection into the market, and the heirs themselves have nil interest in this "junk". When it finally does hit the market --- if ever --- it truly will be junk.

Another good friend, who has had a long and close association with the world of the keris has bequeathed not only his collection, but as far as I am aware, virtually all his other assets to a USA university. The keris & etc to the museum, the other assets, I guess, to the institution itself.

A third case of "collection disposal" of an acquaintance is for me, very sad. I had a customer who had discovered keris late in life, he quickly developed an intense interest, and he credited this interest with helping him to overcome repeated bouts of depression. He left instructions in his will that the collection be given to his old university. His heirs attempted to do this, but the university would not accept it unless it was accompanied by a massive donation of funds or assets to cover cost of keeping the collection. I do not know what eventually happened to this collection, and about 50% of it was very good, the balance just middle-of-the-market.

But one case in which I was involved is to my mind the ideal solution. At age 12 my grandfather gave me his collection of weapons, most of which were collected in place of origin between 1918 and about 1922.

The cases above, as well as a number of similar cases of which I am aware, and that involve the winding up of an estate, have convinced me that when I do move on, as little as possible of the things I have accumulated during my life should be left for others to get rid of. I've been working on this in a gradual manner for about the last 20 years.

Sajen · 21st March 2017, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The cases above, as well as a number of similar cases of which I am aware, and that involve the winding up of an estate, have convinced me that when I do move on, as little as possible of the things I have accumulated during my life should be left for others to get rid of. I've been working on this in a gradual manner for about the last 20 years.

Hello Alan,

I think you "can" do this because you collect experience and knowledge and not "material things", maybe the best way to collect!

I've learned to do it in a similar way but in me is a great portion of a "classic" collector!

Sajen · 21st March 2017, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Everything that Lee has written, I endorse 100%.

I am the second in the row!

Battara · 22nd March 2017, 12:34 AM

I also agree with the above.

I do a page of research and description of each piece, with values and provenance, etc. With that come pictures. This helped me when my collection was broken into, and will again with my death.

Upon my death, for now, Laura my wife will take it over, redistribute some, get some help from specific collector/dealer friends who will know better by then what to sell personally and what goes to auction.

Green · 23rd March 2017, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Our deceased forums moderator Lew Waldman left his family with a written ledger book for about half of his collection with inventory numbers, a description and some of his thoughts about each item and an estimate of value.

Oh interesting...
His sumatera keris panjang #1016 under Indonesia list was sold on ebay sometimes back and it was bought by me.

I wish there are more people selling stuff in this forum ...

kahnjar1 · 23rd March 2017, 08:12 PM

In addition to the wise comments above, there is another aspect to consider, in countries where one needs a licence to own (antique/old) firearms. If your wife/surviving kin do not hold a firearms licence, then the local Police can confiscate the items, or at least "look after them". Best to have a friend who IS a licence holder uplift the items and dispose of them on behalf of the heirs. At least that way they don't just "disappear".
Stu

Rick · 23rd March 2017, 09:26 PM

Very good idea Stu.
When the police have a gun buyback day or week here; outside the entrance to the station are often a host of FFL holders buying the good stuff before it even gets in the door.

fernando · 23rd March 2017, 11:34 PM

That is another 500's, Stu. Even in the countries you are entitled to possess a firearm produced before a determined date (1891) without having to manifest it, the simple cop who catches the item doesn't qualify to judge it by himself, so: he arrests the thing, just in case, and takes it to their quarters and is you who have to go through all eternal red tape (and not only) to prove the piece is within the law; and you are left to the judge who has to recognize such antiquity to release the item. So all you need is luck and don't get spotted, as with anything else.

Lee · 24th March 2017, 03:13 PM

A noted antique arms dealer once told me that he was considering offering a collection dispersal service oriented around publishing a very high quality catalogue of a collection that would serve not only as a record of the collection, but as a sales tool for its dispersal. Of course, single owner auction sales have also generated such catalogs.

Perhaps, as a collector does approach 'end stage' in collecting activities, the publication of such a catalogue - showing the collection at its zenith - is a way of documenting the transient and also very importantly sharing with future collectors where the objects have been and also perhaps some stories about what the present collector learned from or went through acquiring the artifact (as in some of Ewart Oakeshott's writings.) Perhaps this may be a useful, productive and rewarding route when the times of building a collection do come to an end.

Such a catalogue does not have to be associated with a sale, of course, and at worst, the executor of the collector's estate might find it very useful.

21st March 2017, 05:36 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Some Harsh Realities The happiest situation, of course, is when the collector has deserving and interested relatives and or friends who would appreciate and maintain the collection, but I fear this is not a common outcome. Similarly, the vast majority of the items in our collections are unlikely to be of interest to museums for inclusion into their collections and display. They can only absorb so much. This means that the majority of our collections will find their way back into the marketplace and ultimately into new collections as the cycle completes another turn. This is not bad as this is where most of our own collections came from. Unfortunately, preserving the monetary value of the collection upon dispersal for the collector's heirs will be difficult if possible. When items have been held for a good long time and have not fallen from popularity (or have been wrongly stigmatized and blocked from sale as is the current case of items with ivory content in many jurisdictions) natural price appreciation and the background of inflation will mask the expenses and trauma of transfer. Sale by auction has been favored in the comments above and given the correct venue and a decent turnout may be the highest yielding 'turnkey' solution. Still, for most items, auction prices are likely to lag behind retail gallery prices, partially because the buyer must account for an obscene 15 to 25% (or thereabouts buyer's commission) beyond what the seller's commission will take. In any case expect, on a 'good' day at auction, that something like about a third of the value will be absorbed by the transfer process. With penalties for 'high' reserves, setting a reserve can provide only so much protection. Selling to a dealer is another solution that may provide a quick and relatively easy 'turnkey' solution. However, one reality that many collectors may not realize until they try to sell in bulk is that a buying dealer must tie up their capital in the collection and it may take a lot of work, ancillary expenses and years to sell. This means that one should expect only 25 to 50% of the price that the dealer eventually hopes to realize. As some of you recoil in horror, let me advise you (from my own adventures as a 'limited instruction set specialist antique dealer') that the dealer is very likely going to earn that markup. At least with this option your heirs do know what you will get 'up front'! You, your family or a friend of the family can always try the DIY (do it yourself) option and work through the collection via online sales or sales at gun shows and achieve a low retail return if you have the time and patience. You will surely earn the improved return with many hours of labor and you should go into such a plan with your eyes open as to issues with online sales hosts and their policies that may leave you hanging or 'crushed under the bus'. Our deceased forums moderator Lew Waldman left his family with a written ledger book for about half of his collection with inventory numbers, a description and some of his thoughts about each item and an estimate of value. Doing so has increased their recovery of his collection's value. A database is great for the collector (and Fernando has covered what needs to be included above) but I would advise there also being a paper copy of the information just in case the family is less computer adept or the password for the well-encrypted file dies with you. (After all the file includes the greatest secret a collector will likely have kept from their loved ones - namely how much they have invested in their collection!) I have no one to keep this information from, and yet I still greatly restrict its dissemination. I have sternly warned my next of kin to find my records before disposing of anything - whichever option you choose they will need to have this information to intelligently assess their options! So, perhaps a private (only your name and signature) safe deposit box for your records of provenance, receipts, etc. and only a note they will find telling them where to find the key once they have a death certificate to present with it at the bank.

23rd March 2017, 08:12 PM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Another consideration...... In addition to the wise comments above, there is another aspect to consider, in countries where one needs a licence to own (antique/old) firearms. If your wife/surviving kin do not hold a firearms licence, then the local Police can confiscate the items, or at least "look after them". Best to have a friend who IS a licence holder uplift the items and dispose of them on behalf of the heirs. At least that way they don't just "disappear". Stu

24th March 2017, 03:13 PM	#11
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	A further thought A noted antique arms dealer once told me that he was considering offering a collection dispersal service oriented around publishing a very high quality catalogue of a collection that would serve not only as a record of the collection, but as a sales tool for its dispersal. Of course, single owner auction sales have also generated such catalogs. Perhaps, as a collector does approach 'end stage' in collecting activities, the publication of such a catalogue - showing the collection at its zenith - is a way of documenting the transient and also very importantly sharing with future collectors where the objects have been and also perhaps some stories about what the present collector learned from or went through acquiring the artifact (as in some of Ewart Oakeshott's writings.) Perhaps this may be a useful, productive and rewarding route when the times of building a collection do come to an end. Such a catalogue does not have to be associated with a sale, of course, and at worst, the executor of the collector's estate might find it very useful.

21st March 2017, 10:14 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Everything that Lee has written, I endorse 100%. Several years ago, a lifelong friend of mine, who was a very serious collector of Eastern edged weapons, received his promotion to a higher realm. He had always told me in conversation that he intended his collection to be sold back into the market after his promotion --- in his words:- "for the benefit of my fellow collectors" --- and that he had entrusted this task to his heirs. He had prepared a record of:- year purchased, amount paid, description, together with a photo of each piece. Now, several years later, that very large collection is packed into cardboard boxes in the under-floor space of his heir's home. To the best of my knowledge no attempt has been made to put this collection into the market, and the heirs themselves have nil interest in this "junk". When it finally does hit the market --- if ever --- it truly will be junk. Another good friend, who has had a long and close association with the world of the keris has bequeathed not only his collection, but as far as I am aware, virtually all his other assets to a USA university. The keris & etc to the museum, the other assets, I guess, to the institution itself. A third case of "collection disposal" of an acquaintance is for me, very sad. I had a customer who had discovered keris late in life, he quickly developed an intense interest, and he credited this interest with helping him to overcome repeated bouts of depression. He left instructions in his will that the collection be given to his old university. His heirs attempted to do this, but the university would not accept it unless it was accompanied by a massive donation of funds or assets to cover cost of keeping the collection. I do not know what eventually happened to this collection, and about 50% of it was very good, the balance just middle-of-the-market. But one case in which I was involved is to my mind the ideal solution. At age 12 my grandfather gave me his collection of weapons, most of which were collected in place of origin between 1918 and about 1922. The cases above, as well as a number of similar cases of which I am aware, and that involve the winding up of an estate, have convinced me that when I do move on, as little as possible of the things I have accumulated during my life should be left for others to get rid of. I've been working on this in a gradual manner for about the last 20 years.

22nd March 2017, 12:34 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I also agree with the above. I do a page of research and description of each piece, with values and provenance, etc. With that come pictures. This helped me when my collection was broken into, and will again with my death. Upon my death, for now, Laura my wife will take it over, redistribute some, get some help from specific collector/dealer friends who will know better by then what to sell personally and what goes to auction.

23rd March 2017, 09:26 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Very good idea Stu. When the police have a gun buyback day or week here; outside the entrance to the station are often a host of FFL holders buying the good stuff before it even gets in the door.

23rd March 2017, 11:34 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That is another 500's, Stu. Even in the countries you are entitled to possess a firearm produced before a determined date (1891) without having to manifest it, the simple cop who catches the item doesn't qualify to judge it by himself, so: he arrests the thing, just in case, and takes it to their quarters and is you who have to go through all eternal red tape (and not only) to prove the piece is within the law; and you are left to the judge who has to recognize such antiquity to release the item. So all you need is luck and don't get spotted, as with anything else.