Ivory sale/import/export and CITES

mariusgmioc · 16th March 2017, 03:22 PM

It appears that as time passes by, common sense is gradually and steadilly replaced by idiocy in our society.

At times, I have the feeling that our governments are competing in terms of idiocy, in the sense that as soon as one government passes an idiotic law, there are always following governments striving to pass even more idiotic and non-sensical laws.

@ Jens
You say they didn't even allow him to donate the dagger to a museum... I assume the dagger was destroyed... in the spirit of the new European "civilization" not very much unlike ISIS destroyed the ancient artifacts and monuments that weren't into conformity with their set of rules and beliefs.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th March 2017, 04:52 PM

Marius, this has been discussed a number of times, here is a link to what Mark wrote, but be aware of, that it is years ago.
ahttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6786&highlight=CITES
The only thuing I can come up with is, that the weapon societies in each country should contact parlimentarian/s, explain the problem, and ask how it can be solved. I do realise that we in Europe also have the EU parliment, which does not make it any easier, but I dont think it can be done in any other way.

Lee · 16th March 2017, 07:45 PM

I think the problems start with those animal rights pressure groups lobbying from the wrong-headed thinking that ivory, etc. must be made despicable and stigmatized to destroy all demand. This is then compounded by a lazy law enforcement mentality refusing to separate legitimate antiques from what arguably should be stigmatized. Hence we get these idiotic regulations that overly restrict legitimate antiques that are inherently not a significant threat to the endangered species, while still allowing import of trophy tusks from fresh 'licensed' kills.

The US Federal rules have been amended to be a bit more reasonable since the first version following President Obama's executive order, but "me too - me too - I'm more liberal than you!'" governments at the state level have complicated matters. At first, New York's subsequently enacted rules were a little more reasonable than the Federal rules - though not worth the bureaucratic hassles except for very high value items. Not to be outdone by neighboring New York, New Jersey then made up its own set of rules. Lew had some nice genuinely old ethnographic items with ivory and rhino horn elements that could now be sold interstate under the current Federal rules, but the state rules pretty much mean the only course of action for his family is to hold onto the items in hope that the rules will become more reasonable.

Jens is absolutely correct that we must try to reason with our legislators to see evolution of more sensible regulations that accomplish legitimate goals without the collateral insult and injuries.

I would advise collectors to be extremely careful about these overlapping and inconsistent rules that have been enacted at multiple levels of government until sense returns.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th March 2017, 10:32 PM

Lee is correct. The lobbying people is quite a big part of the problem.
We all know they are there, and we all know they get more and more power - but to stop them is quite another question. Their number should be reduced, and their access to the parliments should be reduced as well. In Switzerland they are working at it, and so should other countries.
It is hardly democracy that the firms/orginations which can oey for the biggest number and smartest lobbyists get the most power when it comes to the new laws.
When this is said, we must think of what can/will we do, to awoid that our collections are ruined?

Rick · 17th March 2017, 02:29 AM

A well represented and well funded advocacy group that is international in scope is what is required.
Surely antique dealers and auction houses would be interested.
Tangible history is at stake here.

16th March 2017, 03:22 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	It appears that as time passes by, common sense is gradually and steadilly replaced by idiocy in our society. At times, I have the feeling that our governments are competing in terms of idiocy, in the sense that as soon as one government passes an idiotic law, there are always following governments striving to pass even more idiotic and non-sensical laws. @ Jens You say they didn't even allow him to donate the dagger to a museum... I assume the dagger was destroyed... in the spirit of the new European "civilization" not very much unlike ISIS destroyed the ancient artifacts and monuments that weren't into conformity with their set of rules and beliefs. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 16th March 2017 at 04:37 PM.

16th March 2017, 07:45 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Silly Season I think the problems start with those animal rights pressure groups lobbying from the wrong-headed thinking that ivory, etc. must be made despicable and stigmatized to destroy all demand. This is then compounded by a lazy law enforcement mentality refusing to separate legitimate antiques from what arguably should be stigmatized. Hence we get these idiotic regulations that overly restrict legitimate antiques that are inherently not a significant threat to the endangered species, while still allowing import of trophy tusks from fresh 'licensed' kills. The US Federal rules have been amended to be a bit more reasonable since the first version following President Obama's executive order, but "me too - me too - I'm more liberal than you!'" governments at the state level have complicated matters. At first, New York's subsequently enacted rules were a little more reasonable than the Federal rules - though not worth the bureaucratic hassles except for very high value items. Not to be outdone by neighboring New York, New Jersey then made up its own set of rules. Lew had some nice genuinely old ethnographic items with ivory and rhino horn elements that could now be sold interstate under the current Federal rules, but the state rules pretty much mean the only course of action for his family is to hold onto the items in hope that the rules will become more reasonable. Jens is absolutely correct that we must try to reason with our legislators to see evolution of more sensible regulations that accomplish legitimate goals without the collateral insult and injuries. I would advise collectors to be extremely careful about these overlapping and inconsistent rules that have been enacted at multiple levels of government until sense returns.

16th March 2017, 04:52 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Marius, this has been discussed a number of times, here is a link to what Mark wrote, but be aware of, that it is years ago. ahttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6786&highlight=CITES The only thuing I can come up with is, that the weapon societies in each country should contact parlimentarian/s, explain the problem, and ask how it can be solved. I do realise that we in Europe also have the EU parliment, which does not make it any easier, but I dont think it can be done in any other way.

16th March 2017, 10:32 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Lee is correct. The lobbying people is quite a big part of the problem. We all know they are there, and we all know they get more and more power - but to stop them is quite another question. Their number should be reduced, and their access to the parliments should be reduced as well. In Switzerland they are working at it, and so should other countries. It is hardly democracy that the firms/orginations which can oey for the biggest number and smartest lobbyists get the most power when it comes to the new laws. When this is said, we must think of what can/will we do, to awoid that our collections are ruined?

17th March 2017, 02:29 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	A well represented and well funded advocacy group that is international in scope is what is required. Surely antique dealers and auction houses would be interested. Tangible history is at stake here.