Unknown Sword or machete

Sajen · 11th March 2017, 09:53 PM

Hello Carlos,

very interesting sword, I like it. Handle carving look very Asian, the handle mounts from white metal (you are sure it's silver?) and the "habaki" look similar to Tonkin sabre mounts, agree that the blade is most probable a European military blade. Scabbard is a puzzle to me.

Regards,
Detlef

Jim McDougall · 11th March 2017, 11:20 PM

Most interesting native repurposing of a what appears to be a British M1796 Heavy Cavalry sword blade (the engravings suggest possibly an officers), but these type blades were on the swords used by British in Napoleonic campaigns.
While I cannot be sure of the style of the hilt etc. it seems more Asian or Philippines. The scabbard is stylized after military type scabbards of officers swords of the period, but the original scabbard to this type blade was iron.

This would be entirely to long and awkward in my view as a machete, so what the purpose of this would be is anyones guess.

carlos · 12th March 2017, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Carlos,

very interesting sword, I like it. Handle carving look very Asian, the handle mounts from white metal (you are sure it's silver?) and the "habaki" look similar to Tonkin sabre mounts, agree that the blade is most probable a European military blade. Scabbard is a puzzle to me.

Regards,
Detlef

Hello
Certainly I,m not sure if is silver
Thanks again

Jim McDougall · 12th March 2017, 05:27 PM

Pretty sure this is one of the rarest cases of a British M1796 Heavy cavalry blade being remounted........with habaki!!! very very unusual!

mariusgmioc · 13th March 2017, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Pretty sure this is one of the rarest cases of a British M1796 Heavy cavalry blade being remounted........with habaki!!! very very unusual!

Hello Jim,

Wasn't the M1796 a sabre... thus with a curved blade?

kronckew · 13th March 2017, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Jim,

Wasn't the M1796 a sabre... thus with a curved blade?

the 1796 LC sabre was curved with a hatchet point and simple stirrup guard

the 1796 HC 'sabre' (or sword) was straight with a hatchet point and a flat perforated discoid guard...many were modified before waterloo to 'spear point' the blades. removed from service in 1861.

i think the differences between the terms 'sabre' an d 'sword' were a bit blurry. troopers carried sabres, officers carried swords, even if both looked exactly alike (except for possible decoration on the officer's). the 1796 HC officer's private purchase swords were frequently decorated with scrollwork. the troopers issued ones were not. collectors tend to lock in terms that may or may not have been the same during the active service life of our weapons. makes for interesting arguments here on the forum

Jim McDougall · 14th March 2017, 02:21 AM

Spot on Wayne!!
The 1796 patterns (first 'official' British cavalry pattern) were for light and heavy, as were the next in 1821 (actually 1829).....in 1853 the sword was for both light and heavy. The 1796 'honeysuckle' hilt for heavy cavalry officers was an amazing hilt, and had the same blade as the troopers.

The term sabre was often used broadly for both straight and curved blades for cavalry in the 18th century, the same as broadsword was used for both double edged and single edged (backsword).

These heavy straight blades like the 1796 were usually called 'pallasche' on the Continent.

They think the 'name game' is restricted to ethnographic forms only? NOT.
These variances have present the opportunity for many , uh, 'discussions/debates' around here through the years.

Absolutely right on the modification to spear point on these 'heavies' just prior to Waterloo was reflective of the constant debate over cut vs. thrust for cavalry. These heavy cavalry swords were not popular with the cavalry as they were heavy, awkward chopping swords, but were devastating in the immortal charge of the "Scots Grey's" that day .

I collected British cavalry swords back 'in the day' (late 60s) and still remember a lot of this stuff.

mariusgmioc · 14th March 2017, 10:21 AM

Thank you guys for the info on the 1796 model!

11th March 2017, 09:53 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello Carlos, very interesting sword, I like it. Handle carving look very Asian, the handle mounts from white metal (you are sure it's silver?) and the "habaki" look similar to Tonkin sabre mounts, agree that the blade is most probable a European military blade. Scabbard is a puzzle to me. Regards, Detlef

11th March 2017, 11:20 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Most interesting native repurposing of a what appears to be a British M1796 Heavy Cavalry sword blade (the engravings suggest possibly an officers), but these type blades were on the swords used by British in Napoleonic campaigns. While I cannot be sure of the style of the hilt etc. it seems more Asian or Philippines. The scabbard is stylized after military type scabbards of officers swords of the period, but the original scabbard to this type blade was iron. This would be entirely to long and awkward in my view as a machete, so what the purpose of this would be is anyones guess.

12th March 2017, 05:27 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Pretty sure this is one of the rarest cases of a British M1796 Heavy cavalry blade being remounted........with habaki!!! very very unusual!

14th March 2017, 02:21 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Spot on Wayne!! The 1796 patterns (first 'official' British cavalry pattern) were for light and heavy, as were the next in 1821 (actually 1829).....in 1853 the sword was for both light and heavy. The 1796 'honeysuckle' hilt for heavy cavalry officers was an amazing hilt, and had the same blade as the troopers. The term sabre was often used broadly for both straight and curved blades for cavalry in the 18th century, the same as broadsword was used for both double edged and single edged (backsword). These heavy straight blades like the 1796 were usually called 'pallasche' on the Continent. They think the 'name game' is restricted to ethnographic forms only? NOT. These variances have present the opportunity for many , uh, 'discussions/debates' around here through the years. Absolutely right on the modification to spear point on these 'heavies' just prior to Waterloo was reflective of the constant debate over cut vs. thrust for cavalry. These heavy cavalry swords were not popular with the cavalry as they were heavy, awkward chopping swords, but were devastating in the immortal charge of the "Scots Grey's" that day . I collected British cavalry swords back 'in the day' (late 60s) and still remember a lot of this stuff.

14th March 2017, 10:21 AM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Thank you guys for the info on the 1796 model!