"Malaysian kris/keris"

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

It is a Keris Sundang with a Bugis style hilt cup (pendokok). I've seen similar blades and hilts in Kuala Lumpur. In one shop I visited, it was referred to as Keris Sulu. I think because the style is inspired by the Moro kris. However, while Moro krisses have hilt rings, the Keris Sundang is supplied with a hilt cup just like the ones you'll find on the Indonesian and Malaysian keris. The Keris Sundang thus looks like a cross between the keris and the Moro kris.

Yes F., we have certainly encountered these on the forum on numerous occasions. If you do a search of the forums under "Malay Sundang" you will find many discussion threads on these.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

Yes F., we have certainly encountered these on the forum on numerous occasions. If you do a search of the forums under "Malay Sundang" you will find many discussion threads on these.

Hi David,

My description is based on a few examples I saw being sold in souvenir and antique shops in Kuala Lumpur. I remember seeing one with a hilt and hilt cup that is almost identical to the example above. When I inquired, I was told they were “Malay sundang.” That’s the basis of my statement. I regret not taking photos but Ian's example shares some of the features.

Curiously, I have Noraim Shariff’s book on the handicrafts of Terengganu (a region of Malaysia with a keris tradition) where there is a section on the keris industry, but the term sundang is not mentioned nor does its image appear in the book.

I took some photographs of the sundang at the National Museum of Malaysia (Muzium Negara) as well as the Islamic Arts Museum Malaysia, which I have attached below. The first one is from the Muzium Negara, the second its description, the third from the Islamic Arts Museum and the last the description.

In the museums, the terms sundang and Keris Suluk are used to refer to the Moro kris. There is no reference to a "peninsular" sundang (Malay Sundang?) in both museums.

I noticed the unusual hilts on the Moro kris from the Islamic Arts Museum. These are not common in the Philippines and they make them resemble the examples of “Malay sundang” in the discussion threads. Looking at the blades on the discussion threads, they really look more like re-hilted Moro krises, as mentioned by Kai.

Well known Manila antique dealer Ven Magbuhos personally told me that over the years, he has sent "crate loads" (his words) of Moro krises to Malaysia and that he doesn't know what has happened to them since. The probability that some of these blades have been re-hilted with a style in tune with Malaysian aesthetic sensibilities is probable.

Of course, the probability of Moro krises making their way from Mindanao across the Malay Archipelago onward to the Malay Peninsula throughout the centuries is also likely. James Warren provides an extensive discussion on the external trade of Sulu during the 19th century. Saleeby and Majul also indicate it. The work of Krieger also shows keris among the weapons used by Moros thus showing the exchange of commodities (including weapons) across the region. Edward Frey does not provide any examples of Malay sundang but mentions the use of the term as inappropriate when referring to the Moro kris. If I remember correctly, neither do A.H. Hill, G.C. Wooley and E. Banks trace the manufacture of the sundang to Peninsular Malaysia in their studies. Nonetheless, it seems to be a fact that such swords were present in the Malay Peninsula and just like in Mindanao, Sulu or Borneo, these swords would have required re-hilting eventually. This may explain the hilts that distinguish the so called Malay Sundang from the Moro kris.

The term Malay Sundang can thus refer to two different swords. It could refer to a Moro kris rehilted in the style of Malaysia or as A.G. Maisey pointed out, a product of a "long tradition of souvenir items."

Just sharing my thoughts and hopefully contributing to the discussion.

Regards,

F. de Luzon

[Ian]

When I saw this one I thought it was not very old. The hilt, in particular, reminded me of some of the recent horn hilts on pira, notably the way the horn cavity has been covered with a piece cut to fill the hole at the end of the hilt. That said, I don't believe this is a sword from the Sulu Archipelago but rather from Malaysia, as the seller indicated.

Nobody has commented so far on, what seems to me, an unusual arrangement of the luk, which occupy roughly in the middle third of the blade. I don't recall seeing another example where the curves start so far away from the hilt, but perhaps our keris experts can comment on how commonly this occurs.

Ian.

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Hi David,

My description is based on a few examples I saw being sold in souvenir and antique shops in Kuala Lumpur. I remember seeing one with a hilt and hilt cup that is almost identical to the example above. When I inquired, I was told they were “Malay sundang.” That’s the basis of my statement. I regret not taking photos but Ian's example shares some of the features.

Curiously, I have Noraim Shariff’s book on the handicrafts of Terengganu (a region of Malaysia with a keris tradition) where there is a section on the keris industry, but the term sundang is not mentioned nor does its image appear in the book.

I took some photographs of the sundang at the National Museum of Malaysia (Muzium Negara) as well as the Islamic Arts Museum Malaysia, which I have attached below. The first one is from the Muzium Negara, the second its description, the third from the Islamic Arts Museum and the last the description.

In the museums, the terms sundang and Keris Suluk are used to refer to the Moro kris. There is no reference to a "peninsular" sundang (Malay Sundang?) in both museums.

I noticed the unusual hilts on the Moro kris from the Islamic Arts Museum. These are not common in the Philippines and they make them resemble the examples of “Malay sundang” in the discussion threads. Looking at the blades on the discussion threads, they really look more like re-hilted Moro krises, as mentioned by Kai.

Well known Manila antique dealer Ven Magbuhos personally told me that over the years, he has sent "crate loads" (his words) of Moro krises to Malaysia and that he doesn't know what has happened to them since. The probability that some of these blades have been re-hilted with a style in tune with Malaysian aesthetic sensibilities is probable.

Of course, the probability of Moro krises making their way from Mindanao across the Malay Archipelago onward to the Malay Peninsula throughout the centuries is also likely. James Warren provides an extensive discussion on the external trade of Sulu during the 19th century. Saleeby and Majul also indicate it. The work of Krieger also shows keris among the weapons used by Moros thus showing the exchange of commodities (including weapons) across the region. Edward Frey does not provide any examples of Malay sundang but mentions the use of the term as inappropriate when referring to the Moro kris. If I remember correctly, neither do A.H. Hill, G.C. Wooley and E. Banks trace the manufacture of the sundang to Peninsular Malaysia in their studies. Nonetheless, it seems to be a fact that such swords were present in the Malay Peninsula and just like in Mindanao, Sulu or Borneo, these swords would have required re-hilting eventually. This may explain the hilts that distinguish the so called Malay Sundang from the Moro kris.

The term Malay Sundang can thus refer to two different swords. It could refer to a Moro kris rehilted in the style of Malaysia or as A.G. Maisey pointed out, a product of a "long tradition of souvenir items."

Just sharing my thoughts and hopefully contributing to the discussion.

Regards,

F. de Luzon

Forgive me if i misunderstand you train of thought here, but you seem to be attempting to debunk the notion of sundang blades being created indigenously by Malays themselves for other than souvenir purposes. While it is clearly obvious that many of the Malay dressed sundangs (perhaps even most) do indeed use Moro made blades i have seen many that obviously are not of Moro manufacture and the term "sundang" does seem to be the accepted name for this blade form in the Malay regions.
As for Frey's comments on the proper use of the word "sundang", there are many terms to describe Moro kris in the Moorlands, dependent upon which tribe is naming the blade and the specific form the blade takes (straight, wavy, half and half). If i am not mistaken i do believe that the term "sundang" may in fact have been used amongst certain Moros to describer a specific form of kris blade, along with other terms such as kalis.
Anyway, i think to would be incorrect to assume that if a Malay sundang does not have a Moro blade that it was manufactured only to be a "souvenir item".

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me if i misunderstand you train of thought here, but you seem to be attempting to debunk the notion of sundang blades being created indigenously by Malays themselves for other than souvenir purposes. While it is clearly obvious that many of the Malay dressed sundangs (perhaps even most) do indeed use Moro made blades i have seen many that obviously are not of Moro manufacture and the term "sundang" does seem to be the accepted name for this blade form in the Malay regions.
As for Frey's comments on the proper use of the word "sundang", there are many terms to describe Moro kris in the Moorlands, dependent upon which tribe is naming the blade and the specific form the blade takes (straight, wavy, half and half). If i am not mistaken i do believe that the term "sundang" may in fact have been used amongst certain Moros to describer a specific form of kris blade, along with other terms such as kalis.
Anyway, i think to would be incorrect to assume that if a Malay sundang does not have a Moro blade that it was manufactured only to be a "souvenir item".

Thank you for your comments. I wish I could claim that I am “attempting to debunk a notion” but with the evidence that I have presented (or lack thereof on the Malay Sundang ), all I can say is that I am sharing an observation.

I shared my observation that the so called Malay Sundang/Peninsular Sundang are actually re-hilted Moro Kris and that there is no evidence of the production of such blades in Peninsular Malaysia. I supplied the references for such view above. To further support this observation, allow me to quote from R.O. Winstedt’s article “The Sundang and Other Malaysian Art Motifs” which was published in the Journal of the Malayan Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society in October 1941:

Soendang “a short broad sword” says van Ronkel’s dictionary with no word as its provenance. In the Encyclopaedia van Nedelandsch-Indie (1921) vol. IV, p.680 the word is not to be found but it is described under kalis-“Very different from the keris of Netherlands India is the kalis of the Philippines and of the Sulu Islands. It occurs also in North Borneo and more recently in the districts of Jambi and Indragiri. The Leiden catalogue mentions a specimen from Riau. The blade is long and for a great part of its length is of the same breadth, so that the weapon is as good for hewing as for stabbing. This applies to the wavy as well as to the straight blades, as the waves are small and shallow. More remarkable than anything else are the hilts and the copper or steel fastening about the broad butt. The hilts are nearly straight, Philippine examples ending in a knob in the shape of a bird’s head. Sulu ones in a stylized seated bird with jutting head and tail.” The same article cites soendang as a sword from East Sumatra but gives no description. Wilkinson explains sundang as “sword keris; Sulu Keris…..It differs from the keris in size and massiveness and in its large and serviceable cockatoo headed handle”. My own English-Malay Dictionary & History of Malay call it a sword and following Malay tradition, ascribe it to the Bugis who evidently popularized it. Mr. Wooley talks of “keris like sword of Borneo known as the keris Suluk” …. And Mr. E. Banks of the “keris Suluk or Sundang…., describing it clearly with photos and terming it a broad sword rather than a dagger, with the pregnant comment that it is “almost the only Malaysian cutting instrument with both sides sharpened” (p. 238)

Please take note that the author made no reference to a Peninsular Malaysian origin but to its origins primarily in Sulu and Borneo. I believe this further supports my observation that the so called Malay Sundang are essentially a re-hilted Moro kris.

With regard the blades that you described as “obviously (are) not of Moro manufacture,” the article mentions a sword called soendang in East Sumatra (Jambi/Indragiri?). It is unfortunate that no description was provided but it opens the possibility of a non-Moro origin of certain sundang. I hope that some of the keris experts can enlighten us on this matter. I am not closed to the possibility of alternative origins but so far, I have not seen evidence of it being the Peninsula.

I also stated that the only examples referred to as “Malay Sundang” that I personally saw are items being sold in Kuala Lumpur souvenir and antique shops. These resemble Ian’s example above and I believe that they are souvenir items and not serious fighting blades.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

the term "sundang" does seem to be the accepted name for this blade form in the Malay regions.

As for Frey's comments on the proper use of the word "sundang", there are many terms to describe Moro kris in the Moorlands, dependent upon which tribe is naming the blade and the specific form the blade takes (straight, wavy, half and half). If i am not mistaken i do believe that the term "sundang" may in fact have been used amongst certain Moros to describer a specific form of kris blade, along with other terms such as kalis.

Actually, on the usage of Frey, I simply wanted to show that he used the term in reference to the Moro kris and not to the so called Malay Sundang.

The word "Sundang" is a generic term for knife or sword in Philippine languages. Its usage can range from a kitchen knife, to a bolo (itak/itac), to a sword like the kris. I’ve noticed how it has been used to refer specifically to the straight kris in the discussion forums but in common usage, it is really a very generic term. Here are some examples from nineteenth century dictionaries:

In the Spanish-Tagalog manual, Vade-mecum filipino, o, Manual de la conversación familiar español-tagalog : sequido de un curioso vocabulario de modismos Manileños by V.M. de Abella, published in Manila in 1874; cuchillo de cocina (kitchen knife) is translated as itac or sundang. Cuchillo (knife) is translated as sundang or campit.

In the Diccionario tiruray-español (Tiruray-Spanish dictionary) by Guillermo Bennásar and published in 1892, Sundang is defined as “especie de espada corta y ancha llamada vulgarmente cris” or "species of short and broad sword called vulgarly cris."

You'll find similar usage in other Philippine languages and dialects. The range of meaning of the term sundang is thus really broad.

[David]

I was not at all arguing that the Malay Sundang does not have its origins in the Philippines as a form, only that once it migrated back to the Malay people that local smiths also manufactured a certain amount of blades on what we recognize as Malay Sundangs.
I know that Charles has posted a number of Malay Sundangs that carried blades we all seemed to agree at the time were not of Moro origin and these sundangs were most certainly not of a souvenir nature. Here is a link to one such discussion.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14292
I am well aware of the generic nature of the word "sundang" and it's many uses throughout SEA. Examples like this are what makes the name game so ridiculous at times. However, i can state fairly confidently the the "so-called" Malay Sundang is what Malay collectors call their particular version of the Moro Kris on their own turf. As a Western collector i am not really willing to step in and explain to the Malay people that it is simply a "so-called" name, nor am i about to cite the writings of any number of Europeans to explain to them why that name is some how inappropriate for their usage. It simply is the name that is used by local collectors in Indonesia and the Malay Peninsula AFAIK.
Again, i do believe that a great number of these Malay examples are indeed re-dressed Moro blades, however, as this form became more accepted amongst the Malay it seems only logical that they would begin to manufacture a few blades of their own in this form. I don't know that these non-Moro blades were forged on the Peninsula or Borneo, or some other place in Indonesia, but it seems clear that they were not made by Moros in the Morolands. Please keep in mind that the Malay people are not restricted just to Malaysia and the Peninsula. When we use the word Malay we refer to Malay Peninsula, eastern Sumatra and coastal Borneo, as well as the smaller islands which lie between these locations — areas that are collectively known as the Malay world. These locations today are part of the modern nations of Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Brunei, and southern Thailand.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

I was not at all arguing that the Malay Sundang does not have its origins in the Philippines as a form, only that once it migrated back to the peninsula that local smiths also manufactured a certain amount of blades on what we recognize as Malay Sundangs.
I know that Charles has posted a number of Malay Sundangs that carried blades we all seemed to agree at the time were not of Moro origin and these sundangs were most certainly not of a souvenir nature. Here is a link to one such discussion.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14292
I am well aware of the generic nature of the word "sundang" and it's many uses throughout SEA. Examples like this are what makes the name game so ridiculous at times. However, i can state fairly confidently the the "so-called" Malay Sundang is what Malay collectors call their particular version of the Moro Kris on their own turf. As a Western collector i am not really willing to step in and explain to the Malay people that it is simply a "so-called" name, nor am i about to cite the writings of a any number of Europeans to explain to them why that name is some how inappropriate. It simply is the name that is used by local collectors in Indonesia and the Malay Peninsula AFAIK.
Again, i do believe that a great number of these Malay examples are indeed re-dressed Moro blades, however, as this form became more accepted amongst the Malay it seems only logical that they would begin to manufacture a few blades of their own in this form. I don't know that these non-Moro blades were forged on the Peninsula or Borneo, or some other place in Indonesia, but it seems clear that they were not made by Moros in the Morolands. Please keep in mind that the Malay people are not restricted just to Malaysia and the Peninsula. When we use the word Malay we refer to Malay Peninsula, eastern Sumatra and coastal Borneo, as well as the smaller islands which lie between these locations — areas that are collectively known as the Malay world. These locations today are part of the modern nations of Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Brunei, and southern Thailand.

I mean no offense, but based on the references I mentioned I really see no evidence of the manufacture of sundang in peninsular Malaysia in the past. Like I said, I recognize the possibility that these blades were also manufactured in places other than Sulu such as Borneo and Sumatra which may account for the variation in style. But judging from the examples I've seen in the discussion threads, many look like they came straight from the Sulu and the Mindanao area, and not just in form. I think that the probability of Moro manufactured blades being traded and reaching peninsular Malaysia should also be taken seriously.

The Philippines has been and still is part of the Malay world. While there are those who consider Islam a component of "Malayness" most Filipinos (many of whom are Catholic) would say that they belong to the Malay race. They are known to have traveled across the region in pre-Spanish times (mid 16th Century). The presence of ancient Filipinos in Malacca was recorded by the Portuguese, Tome Pires in the early 1500s. He referred to them as Lucoes or "Luzon Men." While he did not give a completely flattering description of them, they were nonetheless described as fierce warriors. He also explained how they participated in wars between sultans and against the Portuguese. Based on the record, it seems they were mercenaries which may explain the presence of their weapons in Peninsular Malaysia. The big question is whether they already had the sundang with them at the time. There is no evidence to prove it yet.

Nonetheless, trade between Southern Philippines (Sulu) and the rest of the Malay world would continue even after Luzon, the Visayas and parts of Mindanao were colonized by Spain. (Saleeby and Warren explain this) Sometime during this period, I suspect the Moro blacksmiths also sold their blades to people in other parts of the region, including the peninsular Malaysians. There was nothing to stop them from doing so.

Btw, I respect the use of the term "Malay Sundang" but again I do not agree that they were locally manufactured in Peninsular Malaysia.

I have also seen the beautiful non Moro "Malay Sundang" that you mentioned and they were certainly not made to be souvenirs. But as I have stated above, I was referring to the blades I personally saw being sold in KL currently branded as Keris Sundang and also referred to as Malay Sundang. They really look more like a cross between the kris and the keris, just like Ian's blade.

[Ian]

David and de Luzon:

I don't want to get in the way of your interesting discussion. It has long been my understanding that the "Malay sundang" was a variant of the Moro kris, a sort of back development from the historic origin of the kris from the keris. In handling a few older Malay sundang, which were consistent with pre-1900 manufacture, I was impressed by the feel that they had in hand which was different from the more substantial Moro kris. My sense was that these "Malay" versions were somewhat lighter and thinner in the blades, although their straight blades were quite wide. That suggested to me that at least the older ones were not imported from the Sulu Archipelago or Mindanao, but were made elsewhere. My assumption was that they were made in what is today Malaysia. I'm willing to accept that these could have been made, say, in Brunei or North Borneo, but I have no good reason to think that is where they were made.

As far as more modern versions being made in Moroland and exported to Malyasia for sale there, I guess that is possible but there is a good market in Manila which is a lot closer than KL.

I would agree that the subject of this thread was probably made by a Malaysian keris-maker who thought he would make a sundang to sell to those who travel. What we ended up with is a relatively recently made kris/keris hybrid. At least that's how it looks to me.

Ian.

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Btw, I respect the use of the term "Malay Sundang" but again I do not agree that they were locally manufactured in Peninsular Malaysia.

No offense taken, i assure you.
I don't believe, however, that anyone is really arguing that these non-Moro sundangs were manufactured on the Malay Peninsula. Despite Ian's title for this thread they are usually referred to as "Malay Sundangs" (not "Malaysian" as in the country of Malaysia) and belong to the Malay world. I also don't think that anyone would argue that there aren't people of Malay decent in the Philippines or their contribution to that culture, however i would say that it is debatable as to whether or not we should consider the Philippines as part of the "Malay World" in our discussion of their weapons. Though not always the best source i will cite a section of a Wikipedia article that speaks to this debate.

"The Philippines doesn't have a significant ethnic Malay population today, and most if any, descendants of Malays have been assimilated into the general culture, characterized by Spanish influence and Roman Catholicism. Malay influence is still strong in the culturally conservative regions of Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago, whose' people actually reject being called Filipino, and to some extent, in Visayas as well where much Malay involvement came during the classical era. These three island groups are where most Filipinos of Malay descent live.
In the modern-day, the closest population to Malays are the Moro people, the native Muslim population of the Philippines that inhabit Mindanao, Sulu Archipelago, parts of Visayas and the Quiapo district in Manila. They follow a culture and lifestyle similar to Malays.
There is an often a lot of confusion in the Philippines between "ethnic Malays" and "Malay race", a term coined for brown-skinned Austronesian natives of not only the Philippines, but also of Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Singapore and Thailand. The country had its own Malay nationalism, un-associated with the anti-colonial struggle in the British and Dutch East Indies. The Philippine nationalism occurred albeit the end of Spanish occupation and spearheaded by José Rizal. Unlike the Malay nationalism and "Malayness" in Indonesia and Malaysia which was defined by Islam as well as being of the ethnic group, Rizal's movement was that of a secular vision to unify the natives of the Malay Archipelago and the Malay Peninsula, believing them to have falsely been divided by colonial powers."

That said, however, as collectors of edged weapons from these regions we have usually gone along with that division, falsely applied or not, between the Malay world and that of the Philippines when categorizing their weapons. So when one speaks of a "Malay Sundang" we are referring to a non-Moro weapon. This is not to say the blade did not originate from a Moro smith and, as i believe we all agree, most of these blades do seem to come form Moro origins. However, as you have yourself just admitted, you "have also seen the beautiful non Moro" Malay Sundang" that you mentioned and they were certainly not made to be souvenirs". So you seem to contradict the statement you made in post #11, which is what i was originally debating you on. You said there "The term Malay Sundang can thus refer to two different swords. It could refer to a Moro kris rehilted in the style of Malaysia or as A.G. Maisey pointed out, a product of a "long tradition of souvenir items."
I'm sorry, but this statement simply does not jive with what you said about non-Moro blades in the last paragraph of your last post.