Sboula for Comments

TVV · 9th March 2017, 06:18 PM

Jom,

Thank you for a very detailed answer explaining the Moroccan origin of these daggers and the history of their (mis)attribution to other areas in Africa.

A recurring theme through this thread seems to be the concept that many of the sboulas were made from European bayonets. I personally feel that most were either made from European sword blades or forged locally. Given the shape and geometry of sboula blades, I just cant think of many, or even any, bayonets that would fit without having to be reforged. These daggers are quite long, and both I have blades of approximately 21 inches. We can rule out all shorter bayonets, along with all spike bayonets. There were longer bayonets available in the 19th century of course, but the French Chassepot bayonet and other yataghan bayonets had a characteristic curve, and the sboula of course does not. The Gras bayonet has a straight back, but lacks the fuller structure we see on sboula blades, and I have not seen a sboula with a blade of a T-section yet.

I have seen janwi daggers with blades that most definitely started as French bayonets, but the fuller structure and shape of sboulas to me at least suggests sword blades (or local imitation thereof) and not bayonets.

Sincerely,
Teodor

ariel · 9th March 2017, 06:48 PM

Berbers are spread from Tunisia to Mali.
They view themselves as a nation separate from the Arabs and assert they are the native inhabitants of the area and that their ancestors were conquered by the Arabs and forcibly converted to Islam, to which they do not wish to belong.
They call themselves Amazigh. Their national hero is Queen Kahina, a contemporary of Muhammed, who managed to stall Arab advance and maintain an independent Berber state for 5 years.

Berbers are largely separated by clans concentrated roughly within different North African states. This probably explains the differences between their contemporary ethnic weapons. The sticky point in this explanation is the fact that we do not have examples of ancient Berber weapons, just the 19 century at the earliest. By that time, external influences, - Spanish, French, Italian and Ottoman,- likely obscured the inherent patterns and we have to resign ourselves to the fact that the original weapons of the Berbers will never be known to us.

9th March 2017, 06:18 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,727	Jom, Thank you for a very detailed answer explaining the Moroccan origin of these daggers and the history of their (mis)attribution to other areas in Africa. A recurring theme through this thread seems to be the concept that many of the sboulas were made from European bayonets. I personally feel that most were either made from European sword blades or forged locally. Given the shape and geometry of sboula blades, I just cant think of many, or even any, bayonets that would fit without having to be reforged. These daggers are quite long, and both I have blades of approximately 21 inches. We can rule out all shorter bayonets, along with all spike bayonets. There were longer bayonets available in the 19th century of course, but the French Chassepot bayonet and other yataghan bayonets had a characteristic curve, and the sboula of course does not. The Gras bayonet has a straight back, but lacks the fuller structure we see on sboula blades, and I have not seen a sboula with a blade of a T-section yet. I have seen janwi daggers with blades that most definitely started as French bayonets, but the fuller structure and shape of sboulas to me at least suggests sword blades (or local imitation thereof) and not bayonets. Sincerely, Teodor

9th March 2017, 06:48 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Berbers are spread from Tunisia to Mali. They view themselves as a nation separate from the Arabs and assert they are the native inhabitants of the area and that their ancestors were conquered by the Arabs and forcibly converted to Islam, to which they do not wish to belong. They call themselves Amazigh. Their national hero is Queen Kahina, a contemporary of Muhammed, who managed to stall Arab advance and maintain an independent Berber state for 5 years. Berbers are largely separated by clans concentrated roughly within different North African states. This probably explains the differences between their contemporary ethnic weapons. The sticky point in this explanation is the fact that we do not have examples of ancient Berber weapons, just the 19 century at the earliest. By that time, external influences, - Spanish, French, Italian and Ottoman,- likely obscured the inherent patterns and we have to resign ourselves to the fact that the original weapons of the Berbers will never be known to us.