The flowers on the tulwar hilts

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2017, 04:57 PM

Yes Jim, there are different way to go if you really want to study the Indian arms, textiles is one of them, which should be added to the others.

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2017, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes Jim, there are different way to go if you really want to study the Indian arms, textiles is one of them, which should be added to the others.

Well there you have it !!

yet another avenue for researching these weapons. Too many collectors think that in order to study Indian arms (or any ethnographic forms for that matter) the answers will be in neatly categorized chapters with each type pictured and classified and that the decoration is from such and such place etc.
It is in a broad study of material culture, art and crafts, religion, traditions, coins, textiles etc. that the real answers are found.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2017, 09:37 PM

I do realise that not many collectors are prepated to start to research in this way - although this is the way to do it, and when we are at it, lets add religion.
This makes me say, that the ones who asks from where is this, or how old is it, should try to think of, how many hours it has taken for the one who answers, to get to the right answer.
I do know that collectors have different levels of interest, in how far they will go researching their weapons - but try to appresiate the answers from the ones who did the reaesrch.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd February 2017, 11:05 PM

It is indeed vital to remove the blinkers on this revolving and evolving subject. I also think that the answers may not necessarily suddenly appear rather that someone down the line may take up the challenge based on the research we have here, thus, answers or theories may arise thereafter.

For sure there are shadowy linkages across the spectrum on Religion, history, architecture, metalworking techniques, floral and geometric design, textiles, ceramics, artwork, coins, jewellery, calligraphy, arms and armour, tribal Hindu and Moghul style...secret and talismanic mystical involvement, traditions and probably 10 other associated ideas...at least!

Whilst the subject has a deep melting pot the spin-off is in Indian arms and armour generally; so that having entered the debate researchers will expand their knowledge considerably by getting involved moreover access to this knowledge base is a gateway into other regions weaponry so closely linked both ways when considering Ethnographic Arms and Armour..

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2017, 11:51 PM

Amen Jens!!!
I think this is one of the reasons that the study of ethnographic weaponry SHOULD be included in the academic study of that as well as anthropology, archaeology and many of the humanities. They are iconic in reflecting so much history of the cultures and all manner of groups which they are from.

I know that in the many years I have studied the weapons, I have learned so much on so many aspects of these cultures that technically are not at all directly related to the arms themselves. It is a dynamically broad picture that actually has few bounds and perpetually grows as more is learned.
Ibrahiim, you too have followed this path, and its great to learn together as we all seek more answers in these many diverse areas.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd February 2017, 09:31 PM

Please see http://www.christies.com/features/Bl...rd-5843-1.aspx where the continued demolition of AURANGZEB remaining family members is explained.

See also https://books.google.com.om/books?id...tribes&f=false Which describes Indian Culture and decoration across a wide spectrum of forms.

Jens Nordlunde · 18th March 2017, 05:20 PM

Thank you for the links Ibrahiim.
One should be aware of, that flowers shown on hilts are seldom what they really looks like. The artists were not botanists, and so they often made the flowers the way which fitted them best.
The khanjarli hilt below asows this quite clearly. The flowers are supposed to be of the same kind, but the number of petals are quite different, 7, 8, 9 and 8.
On some hilts the flowers shown are made in detail, but in most cases this is not so.

23rd February 2017, 09:31 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Please see http://www.christies.com/features/Bl...rd-5843-1.aspx where the continued demolition of AURANGZEB remaining family members is explained. See also https://books.google.com.om/books?id...tribes&f=false Which describes Indian Culture and decoration across a wide spectrum of forms. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd February 2017 at 09:57 PM.

18th March 2017, 05:20 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for the links Ibrahiim. One should be aware of, that flowers shown on hilts are seldom what they really looks like. The artists were not botanists, and so they often made the flowers the way which fitted them best. The khanjarli hilt below asows this quite clearly. The flowers are supposed to be of the same kind, but the number of petals are quite different, 7, 8, 9 and 8. On some hilts the flowers shown are made in detail, but in most cases this is not so. Attached Images

22nd February 2017, 04:57 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Jim, there are different way to go if you really want to study the Indian arms, textiles is one of them, which should be added to the others.

22nd February 2017, 09:37 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I do realise that not many collectors are prepated to start to research in this way - although this is the way to do it, and when we are at it, lets add religion. This makes me say, that the ones who asks from where is this, or how old is it, should try to think of, how many hours it has taken for the one who answers, to get to the right answer. I do know that collectors have different levels of interest, in how far they will go researching their weapons - but try to appresiate the answers from the ones who did the reaesrch.

22nd February 2017, 11:05 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It is indeed vital to remove the blinkers on this revolving and evolving subject. I also think that the answers may not necessarily suddenly appear rather that someone down the line may take up the challenge based on the research we have here, thus, answers or theories may arise thereafter. For sure there are shadowy linkages across the spectrum on Religion, history, architecture, metalworking techniques, floral and geometric design, textiles, ceramics, artwork, coins, jewellery, calligraphy, arms and armour, tribal Hindu and Moghul style...secret and talismanic mystical involvement, traditions and probably 10 other associated ideas...at least! Whilst the subject has a deep melting pot the spin-off is in Indian arms and armour generally; so that having entered the debate researchers will expand their knowledge considerably by getting involved moreover access to this knowledge base is a gateway into other regions weaponry so closely linked both ways when considering Ethnographic Arms and Armour..

22nd February 2017, 11:51 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,578	Amen Jens!!! I think this is one of the reasons that the study of ethnographic weaponry SHOULD be included in the academic study of that as well as anthropology, archaeology and many of the humanities. They are iconic in reflecting so much history of the cultures and all manner of groups which they are from. I know that in the many years I have studied the weapons, I have learned so much on so many aspects of these cultures that technically are not at all directly related to the arms themselves. It is a dynamically broad picture that actually has few bounds and perpetually grows as more is learned. Ibrahiim, you too have followed this path, and its great to learn together as we all seek more answers in these many diverse areas.