Lances at San Pascual

fernando · 18th February 2017, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

...THAT IS WHY MILITARY UNIFORMS WERE BRIGHTLY COLORED, AND UNITS CARRIED LARGE FLAGS SO AS TO BE RECOGNIZABLE .

Somehow a two ends stick; you could better visualize your mates but also make your self better spotted by the enemy, if he was at close quarters; yet the shining safety vest was not yet invented

. Michael Glover compared hand to hand shooting ambiance with the dense fog of London. Lieu Tenant Colonel Wilson, during the atack of Erlon (before Waterloo) reported that he could not see the enemy, having then been instructed to direct his fire towards and over the bodies of some death horses laying ahead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

... AND THE SLOW RATE OF FIRE OF MUZZLE-LOADING FIREARMS IS YET ANOTHER ISSUE TO BE TOUCHED UPON.

It is said that a well trained soldier could reload twice in a minute; such an eternity. Still having to often pause for cleaning the barrel and changing the flint every thirty rounds.

kronckew · 18th February 2017, 12:33 PM

most attacks would succeed or fail in 6 volleys or less, ranges were much too short for more, tho one at short range just before bayonet contact were deadly. napoleon's old guard veterans all, broke with 6 at waterloo and retreated.

even after the issuance of rifles and cartridge weapons, most battles ended after a few volleys, not extended firefights. the famous battle of rourke's drift, most zulu were killed at a range of a few hundred yards & very few made it to hand to hand range. unlike the movie. (and they were not yet a welsh regiment). the zulu king had told his brother not to attack fixed positions or he wpuld be defeated. he ignored that and was. the impis that attacked the mobile and split forces at islandlhwana listened and won. also after just a few volleys as they overan the unprepared british and their unfortified camp.

up till the beginning of the american civil war uniforms and flags signalled to units who was who as there were no radios, telephones and as noted, lots of smoke. union and confederate troops at the beginning both wore an assortment of colours, the southern officers, many ex-union, continued wearing blue, especially their hats long after they changed to grey coats. the fog of war still caused many blue on blue casualties. lees' loss of stonewall jackson to 'friendly fire' being one of the most telling. the south changed their national flag a couple of times to avoid confusion with the yankee one in battle.

an aside, polish cavalry with long (14ft. +/-) lances defeated a large swedish army with pikes and halberds. they also slaughtered the turks outside wien (vienna) at the latter part of the 17th c.

edited:somehow swede turned into swiss, fixed now.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2017, 04:42 AM

Philip, Fernando and Wayne, not to add more but just wanted to thank you guys for these outstanding insights into military history and battle aspects. It is fascinating to learn more on the actual conditions and situations experienced in these combats, and the real issues they faced with the weaponry at hand. Really adds perspective!!!

kronckew · 19th February 2017, 08:45 AM

you are welcome. i've updated my last post to fix an oops & add some pics. the context that our weapons were used in makes their design even more interesting. the polish lances i mentioned were counterbalanced at the rear end, and had hollow shafts to permit the long length. they broke on initial impact and were dropped, and the hussar reverted to his sabre. the poles retained lances far longer than other europeans tho they switched to a shorter all metal lance more in line with other nations. they were, like the canadian mounties retained for parade use even now. they did NOT attack german panzers with them in ww2, that was german propaganda. a polish cavalry unit DID charge a overconfident german encampment lacking sentries, routing it with rifles, pistols and sabres, but the lances were not used. they were back at their stores. they ran into some armoured vehicles on the other side of the germans , and then retreated in good order, victorious for once. they mostly rode to battle, dismounted, set up with rifles and machine guns to engage the advancing germans before being overwhelmed by the blitzkrieg. brave but hopeless.

fernando · 19th February 2017, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

...edited:somehow swede turned into swiss, fixed now.

...

More accordingly with my limited knowledge; the Swiss were reported to be rather efficient with halberds, Sempach and all; notwithstanding that Polish Hulans were so good that their profile ended up inspiring lancers formations in European armies ... Portugal included; and this meant as far as uniforms, including traditional czapkas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the polish lances i mentioned were counterbalanced at the rear end, and had hollow shafts to permit the long length. they broke on initial impact and were dropped ...

Speaking of breaking lances, but in a different context, in the battle of Aljubarrota (1385), which has been an episode that marked the consolidation of Portuguese independence, when the Castillian cavalry realized they had no room to advance in a mounted mode, due to a defence built bottleneck, in great part came afoot and broke their long lances to adapt them for eminent hand to hand combat.

kronckew · 19th February 2017, 06:01 PM

yes, the swiss made mincemeat of the overconfident austrian knights in a number of battles. they were assisted by skillful use of anti-armour defences like caltrops and lillies (small pits with spikes in the bottom) and use of the terrain to funnel and slow the knights to their doom. once immobile the halberders could hook them off their horses, their western lances were no longer maneuverable and the long hafted spiked axes outreached their swords,maces and hammers. the swiss were well practiced, using their halberds as farm implements when not fighting to build up their skills & muscles... every swiss still takes his weapon home with him when he leaves the army and forms the reserve. there is the old story of a german ambassador to switzerland viewing a shutzenfest with the swiss defence minister, he happened to mention that the germans had a professional army of two million men waiting on the swiss border and switzerland only had a population of one million, what could he do if they invade? the minister said 'shoot twice and go home'. the germans never invaded.

short lances. - boarding pikes!

still a USN issue weapon

Pike drill, USS Constitution, which is still in commission.

18th February 2017, 12:33 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,227	most attacks would succeed or fail in 6 volleys or less, ranges were much too short for more, tho one at short range just before bayonet contact were deadly. napoleon's old guard veterans all, broke with 6 at waterloo and retreated. even after the issuance of rifles and cartridge weapons, most battles ended after a few volleys, not extended firefights. the famous battle of rourke's drift, most zulu were killed at a range of a few hundred yards & very few made it to hand to hand range. unlike the movie. (and they were not yet a welsh regiment). the zulu king had told his brother not to attack fixed positions or he wpuld be defeated. he ignored that and was. the impis that attacked the mobile and split forces at islandlhwana listened and won. also after just a few volleys as they overan the unprepared british and their unfortified camp. up till the beginning of the american civil war uniforms and flags signalled to units who was who as there were no radios, telephones and as noted, lots of smoke. union and confederate troops at the beginning both wore an assortment of colours, the southern officers, many ex-union, continued wearing blue, especially their hats long after they changed to grey coats. the fog of war still caused many blue on blue casualties. lees' loss of stonewall jackson to 'friendly fire' being one of the most telling. the south changed their national flag a couple of times to avoid confusion with the yankee one in battle. an aside, polish cavalry with long (14ft. +/-) lances defeated a large swedish army with pikes and halberds. they also slaughtered the turks outside wien (vienna) at the latter part of the 17th c. edited:somehow swede turned into swiss, fixed now. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 19th February 2017 at 08:31 AM.

19th February 2017, 06:01 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,227	yes, the swiss made mincemeat of the overconfident austrian knights in a number of battles. they were assisted by skillful use of anti-armour defences like caltrops and lillies (small pits with spikes in the bottom) and use of the terrain to funnel and slow the knights to their doom. once immobile the halberders could hook them off their horses, their western lances were no longer maneuverable and the long hafted spiked axes outreached their swords,maces and hammers. the swiss were well practiced, using their halberds as farm implements when not fighting to build up their skills & muscles... every swiss still takes his weapon home with him when he leaves the army and forms the reserve. there is the old story of a german ambassador to switzerland viewing a shutzenfest with the swiss defence minister, he happened to mention that the germans had a professional army of two million men waiting on the swiss border and switzerland only had a population of one million, what could he do if they invade? the minister said 'shoot twice and go home'. the germans never invaded. short lances. - boarding pikes! still a USN issue weapon Pike drill, USS Constitution, which is still in commission. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 19th February 2017 at 06:22 PM.

19th February 2017, 04:42 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Philip, Fernando and Wayne, not to add more but just wanted to thank you guys for these outstanding insights into military history and battle aspects. It is fascinating to learn more on the actual conditions and situations experienced in these combats, and the real issues they faced with the weaponry at hand. Really adds perspective!!!

19th February 2017, 08:45 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,227	you are welcome. i've updated my last post to fix an oops & add some pics. the context that our weapons were used in makes their design even more interesting. the polish lances i mentioned were counterbalanced at the rear end, and had hollow shafts to permit the long length. they broke on initial impact and were dropped, and the hussar reverted to his sabre. the poles retained lances far longer than other europeans tho they switched to a shorter all metal lance more in line with other nations. they were, like the canadian mounties retained for parade use even now. they did NOT attack german panzers with them in ww2, that was german propaganda. a polish cavalry unit DID charge a overconfident german encampment lacking sentries, routing it with rifles, pistols and sabres, but the lances were not used. they were back at their stores. they ran into some armoured vehicles on the other side of the germans , and then retreated in good order, victorious for once. they mostly rode to battle, dismounted, set up with rifles and machine guns to engage the advancing germans before being overwhelmed by the blitzkrieg. brave but hopeless.