St. Augustine Florida Excavated Spanish Morion

CSinTX · 16th February 2017, 02:15 AM

Very interesting. I wonder if there might be any museums in St. Augustine that have other examples of excavated items.

Does it have any seems like a morion or is it all one piece?

fernando · 16th February 2017, 01:30 PM

Could it be assumed that, instead of this being a transitional or intermediary specimen, is simply one more contemporary variant, as it appears there were several. I guess we also have to consider the idiomatic issue, as typologies in different nations would have different names to the same model ... or sort of. As a curious note, we still (and only) use in Portugal the term 'capacete' for current military and bikers head protection devices.
Indeed Oakeshott calls cabacete to the type with a pear stalk, labelling it as a Spanish form of celata; while the drawing he represents in his work and the words he uses in its text, besides the typical top stalk detail, are a downturned brim coming to a sharp point fore and aft. We know that cabassets also appear with an all round flat or downturned brim ... no points up. So, and not trying to vulgarize the subject, one should expect there were models for all tastes.
Attached a XV century Portuguese armour; unfortunately (having to be) assembled with components from different units, but all originated from the Lisbon Arsenal. Interesting to notice that capacete variant.

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Jim McDougall · 16th February 2017, 06:12 PM

I would think that contemporary variants would be somewhat in this same nebulous area of classification as transitional examples, as naturally either personal or localized regional styling and preference in features would call for such cases.

It would seem something would leave the transitional stage when one or more characteristics are left behind becoming the new or more current form.
In many cases, particularly with Spanish arms and armour, older and even technically obsolete forms were often still preferred, particularly in the New World. Whether these were simply easier obtained than newer forms by the self supplied individuals in these expeditions and colonizations using surplus obsolete items or deliberately commissioned is anybody's guess.

Philip · 17th February 2017, 05:48 AM

'Just noticed one of nearly identical shape and construction to the St Augustine helmet, published in the guidebook to the Luigi Marzoli Collection housed in the castle in Brescia, Italy. The piece (inv. no. E60), is dated to the period 1570-80 and attributed to a Brescian workshop or armory. The only real difference with this one is that it is lightly engraved with geometric and floral borders, and displays a large coat-of-arms of a lion rampant surmonted by a Cross of Lorraine. And it appears to be in near-perfect condition, having led a very sheltered life for about 450 years!

The museum identifies the type as a "morione aguzzo".

Turning to my copy of Umberto Franzoi's "L'Armeria del Palazzo Ducale a Venezia", there are 71 catalog entries for morions. The type with the "pear" stem is called "morione a punta" (the equivalent to the m. aguzzo), and the pattern with the comb is, predictably, the "morione a cresta". The interesting thing is that the pear-topped ones vary greatly in terms of their brims, ranging from flat and oval (inv. no. C7) to flat with a "football shaped" contour (inv. no. C14), to a highly exaggerated upturned boat shape (inv. no. C65). All of those in the armory collection are engraved and from Brescia. The crested ones are either Brescian or German, and this class is in the minority.

Philip · 17th February 2017, 06:47 AM

So when is it a cabacete and when is it a morione? Curatorial choices of terminology can be quite varied and perhaps arbitrary -- the latter especially considering the number of neologisms which have become attached to certain objects by kernoozers and hobbyists long after the items themselves had passed from current use into the realm of nostalgia. ("Miquelet" and "mortuary hilt" are two classic examples of neologisms in a non-armor context.)

Fernando's posts, as well as mine, have touched on this. Here's another one --
the flat-brimmed cabasset with the pear stem top that the curators of the Armeria del Palazzo Ducale have placed into the class "morione a punta" is tagged as a "zuccotto" by the folks at the Armeria Reale di Torino. Same thing, different name.

And how about same name applied to a range of very different helmets? Check out Oakeshott, "European Weapons and Armour" fig. 90, A-K to see the variety of forms classified as "burgonets".

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2017, 06:17 PM

It would seem the 'name game' is alive and well in all fields of arms and armour

16th February 2017, 01:30 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	From the depth of my ignorance ... Could it be assumed that, instead of this being a transitional or intermediary specimen, is simply one more contemporary variant, as it appears there were several. I guess we also have to consider the idiomatic issue, as typologies in different nations would have different names to the same model ... or sort of. As a curious note, we still (and only) use in Portugal the term 'capacete' for current military and bikers head protection devices. Indeed Oakeshott calls cabacete to the type with a pear stalk, labelling it as a Spanish form of celata; while the drawing he represents in his work and the words he uses in its text, besides the typical top stalk detail, are a downturned brim coming to a sharp point fore and aft. We know that cabassets also appear with an all round flat or downturned brim ... no points up. So, and not trying to vulgarize the subject, one should expect there were models for all tastes. Attached a XV century Portuguese armour; unfortunately (having to be) assembled with components from different units, but all originated from the Lisbon Arsenal. Interesting to notice that capacete variant. . Attached Images

17th February 2017, 05:48 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Analogous examples to Dana's helmet 'Just noticed one of nearly identical shape and construction to the St Augustine helmet, published in the guidebook to the Luigi Marzoli Collection housed in the castle in Brescia, Italy. The piece (inv. no. E60), is dated to the period 1570-80 and attributed to a Brescian workshop or armory. The only real difference with this one is that it is lightly engraved with geometric and floral borders, and displays a large coat-of-arms of a lion rampant surmonted by a Cross of Lorraine. And it appears to be in near-perfect condition, having led a very sheltered life for about 450 years! The museum identifies the type as a "morione aguzzo". Turning to my copy of Umberto Franzoi's "L'Armeria del Palazzo Ducale a Venezia", there are 71 catalog entries for morions. The type with the "pear" stem is called "morione a punta" (the equivalent to the m. aguzzo), and the pattern with the comb is, predictably, the "morione a cresta". The interesting thing is that the pear-topped ones vary greatly in terms of their brims, ranging from flat and oval (inv. no. C7) to flat with a "football shaped" contour (inv. no. C14), to a highly exaggerated upturned boat shape (inv. no. C65). All of those in the armory collection are engraved and from Brescia. The crested ones are either Brescian or German, and this class is in the minority. Last edited by Philip; 17th February 2017 at 06:14 AM.

17th February 2017, 06:47 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	variations in terminology So when is it a cabacete and when is it a morione? Curatorial choices of terminology can be quite varied and perhaps arbitrary -- the latter especially considering the number of neologisms which have become attached to certain objects by kernoozers and hobbyists long after the items themselves had passed from current use into the realm of nostalgia. ("Miquelet" and "mortuary hilt" are two classic examples of neologisms in a non-armor context.) Fernando's posts, as well as mine, have touched on this. Here's another one -- the flat-brimmed cabasset with the pear stem top that the curators of the Armeria del Palazzo Ducale have placed into the class "morione a punta" is tagged as a "zuccotto" by the folks at the Armeria Reale di Torino. Same thing, different name. And how about same name applied to a range of very different helmets? Check out Oakeshott, "European Weapons and Armour" fig. 90, A-K to see the variety of forms classified as "burgonets".

16th February 2017, 02:15 AM	#1
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	Very interesting. I wonder if there might be any museums in St. Augustine that have other examples of excavated items. Does it have any seems like a morion or is it all one piece?

16th February 2017, 06:12 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	I would think that contemporary variants would be somewhat in this same nebulous area of classification as transitional examples, as naturally either personal or localized regional styling and preference in features would call for such cases. It would seem something would leave the transitional stage when one or more characteristics are left behind becoming the new or more current form. In many cases, particularly with Spanish arms and armour, older and even technically obsolete forms were often still preferred, particularly in the New World. Whether these were simply easier obtained than newer forms by the self supplied individuals in these expeditions and colonizations using surplus obsolete items or deliberately commissioned is anybody's guess.

17th February 2017, 06:17 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	It would seem the 'name game' is alive and well in all fields of arms and armour