The flowers on the tulwar hilts

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2017, 04:47 PM

Alan, thank you so much for this remarkable and itemized information pertaining to the symbolism associated with various Hindu deities. This is exactly the kind of detail needed to better understand the floral aspects of these hilts, and their imbued symbolism.
It is a well placed reminder as you have noted, that often key data and clues in the study of one field of weapons may be found within studies of other arms, not necessarily directly connected.

As you have well observed, it is most unlikely we can know without a doubt the exact purpose or meaning intended by the original artisan who created the decoration, or that of its intended client or clientele. These imbuements are of other times and circumstances, and their actual intended meanings do not necessarily transcend into later situations or generations. Often times these motifs may simply be repeated aesthetically or traditionally without such aspects being known.

Still, having such insight into the symbolism generally held in Hindu dogma and tradition can give us a reasonably plausible view to evaluate such possibilities.

Also, as noted, there was a good degree of use of Hindu motif melded into the decoration of Islamic arms which was likely far more aesthetically applied in many cases. However, it is known that a number of favored floral patterns became dynastic leitmotif in other cases.

A. G. Maisey · 14th February 2017, 08:46 PM

Thanks for your comment Jim.

I have believed for a long time that it is simply not possible to learn much about keris, by the attempted study of keris. Pretty much all one can gain by studying the keris itself is superficial and often erroneous understandings of the simple physical characteristics.

The Indianised States of South East Asia , most especially Jawa and Bali, owe much to their Indian heritage. That heritage has been combined with indigenous cultural values, and overlaid with the values and beliefs of other cultures, very much so in Java, to a lesser degree in Bali, but the foundations of Hindu-Buddhist symbolism are still there.

To have any hope at all of understanding this symbolism, and the associated values, it is essential to study the society and culture, rather than a single blossom of that culture:- the keris.

I am inclined to believe that using this socio-cultural approach to the study of perhaps any form of weaponry that was/is used by any group of people will yield better results than trying to understand a weapon by studying the weapon itself.

To put it another way:- if we regard weapons as blossoms of a culture, roses, so to speak, we do the same as a dedicated rose gardener does:- we study the soil in which the rose grows, in order to understand the rose. We do not begin with a petal and then work back to the soil. Study of a petal tells us almost nothing, study of the soil tells us almost everything.

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2017, 12:43 PM

Alan, thank you for your posts. They are very interesting, especially the part about the flowers connected to the deieties. I have always thought that the number of flowers were more limited.
Your last post explains it all quite well, and the way you end the post explains very well how a research should be started:-).

14th February 2017, 04:47 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,579	Alan, thank you so much for this remarkable and itemized information pertaining to the symbolism associated with various Hindu deities. This is exactly the kind of detail needed to better understand the floral aspects of these hilts, and their imbued symbolism. It is a well placed reminder as you have noted, that often key data and clues in the study of one field of weapons may be found within studies of other arms, not necessarily directly connected. As you have well observed, it is most unlikely we can know without a doubt the exact purpose or meaning intended by the original artisan who created the decoration, or that of its intended client or clientele. These imbuements are of other times and circumstances, and their actual intended meanings do not necessarily transcend into later situations or generations. Often times these motifs may simply be repeated aesthetically or traditionally without such aspects being known. Still, having such insight into the symbolism generally held in Hindu dogma and tradition can give us a reasonably plausible view to evaluate such possibilities. Also, as noted, there was a good degree of use of Hindu motif melded into the decoration of Islamic arms which was likely far more aesthetically applied in many cases. However, it is known that a number of favored floral patterns became dynastic leitmotif in other cases.

14th February 2017, 08:46 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Thanks for your comment Jim. I have believed for a long time that it is simply not possible to learn much about keris, by the attempted study of keris. Pretty much all one can gain by studying the keris itself is superficial and often erroneous understandings of the simple physical characteristics. The Indianised States of South East Asia , most especially Jawa and Bali, owe much to their Indian heritage. That heritage has been combined with indigenous cultural values, and overlaid with the values and beliefs of other cultures, very much so in Java, to a lesser degree in Bali, but the foundations of Hindu-Buddhist symbolism are still there. To have any hope at all of understanding this symbolism, and the associated values, it is essential to study the society and culture, rather than a single blossom of that culture:- the keris. I am inclined to believe that using this socio-cultural approach to the study of perhaps any form of weaponry that was/is used by any group of people will yield better results than trying to understand a weapon by studying the weapon itself. To put it another way:- if we regard weapons as blossoms of a culture, roses, so to speak, we do the same as a dedicated rose gardener does:- we study the soil in which the rose grows, in order to understand the rose. We do not begin with a petal and then work back to the soil. Study of a petal tells us almost nothing, study of the soil tells us almost everything.

15th February 2017, 12:43 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alan, thank you for your posts. They are very interesting, especially the part about the flowers connected to the deieties. I have always thought that the number of flowers were more limited. Your last post explains it all quite well, and the way you end the post explains very well how a research should be started:-).