What kind of sword is this?

Mercenary · 11th February 2017, 04:22 PM

Henk, Kubur thanks!
What are the earliest accounts about dha we know?
May be it is Japanese tachi?

Rich · 11th February 2017, 04:28 PM

I doubt it is a Japanese tachi. Wrong type of mounts, fittings and hanger.

Rich

Marcus · 11th February 2017, 04:31 PM

At this time Japan was cut off from the western world but South East Asia was in contact with the Dutch, Portuguese, and English. It looks like a Dha to me too.

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2017, 06:22 PM

I am not sure of the title and origin of this painting, but it certainly appears of the Dutch masters schools and in accord with the period.
This is most certainly a dha, and by the squared chape style probably Burmese or Thai but these regions at that time were of course under different national headings.

It is interesting just how prevalent 'globalization ' was in these times, and Rembrandt was known for having quite a collection of arms and armour, often 'exotica' from these areas in the Dutch trade of the East Indies.
SE Asia, in particular Viet Nam was regarded as Cochin China, and contact with these contiguous countries via Dutch factories in many of them including China proper, India and the many archipelagos would account for such items.

Also interesting to see the dha and mounts in real time depiction establishing set period for the styling (though probably well established earlier).

Mercenary · 11th February 2017, 07:16 PM

I agree it is dha. However we know a lot of 19-20th swords "dha" and they are far different from the subject. Where are there such "dha" the same as on the picture?

ArmsAndAntiques · 11th February 2017, 07:28 PM

The type of sword in the image reminds me of some swords in images posted on the forum some years ago from a European collection, which I won't try to pretend that I remember the name of.

However I repost those images here, which show dha and Japanese influenced swords likely made for high ranking members of a European court, or fops such as that in the image. So, it stands to reason that dhas did end up in Europe and both could have been worn and influence European sword design, though one would expect the decoration on the example in the painting to be more European influenced such as those examples in the images I post (though they seem to be composites of Asian origin blades and some fittings and mainly European fittings).

What is the origin of the painting? Polish?

Regards
LL

ArmsAndAntiques · 11th February 2017, 07:51 PM

Some more images. I believe this Dresden...

The sword of Thomas Kapustran, Klauzenburg / Siebenbiurgen (Romania), 1674
Blade and scabbard, Japanese

Also to stress that these are not mine, but a forum member who posted these some years ago, here is the link as well:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=662

best
LL

ariel · 12th February 2017, 04:40 AM

Rembrandt ( 1606-1669) in his picture " Blinding of Samson" used Ceylonese spear and Balinese kris.
Dutchmen traveled far and wide and early on, and brought back a lot of exotic souvenirs.

Mercenary · 12th February 2017, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmsAndAntiques

What is the origin of the painting? Polish?
LL

Dutch

Quote:

Dutchmen traveled far and wide and early on, and brought back a lot of exotic souvenirs.

Many thanks. I think the same. Many thanks. I think the same. Now the question the real SEA dha it is or some European stylized sword as mention above.

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2017, 06:09 PM

You guys are amazing!! How you always find perfect illustrations and pertinent posts is outstanding to carry the discussion
I'm glad you agree Mercenary that this is a Dutch painting. While I'm no art expert, it certainly has the 'feel' of Dutch masters .
As I mentioned earlier, Rembrandt had a nominal collection of exotic weaponry from Indonesian and Asian areas which had been brought back by Dutch VOC ships.
It would seem that his inclusion of these unusual weapons were placed in his works for 'effect', and it seems that other artists followed suit.

The interaction between Europe and these exotic ports of call with various material culture and of course weaponry is well established. As seen, there were European versions of various forms from China and other Asian locations in style and decoration. The decoration known as Tonquinese was used through the 18th century on court and smallswords. In many cases Chinese and other artisans were brought into European shops to work on many of the 'exotic' forms.

In the case of this dha, obviously we are looking at an artists conception of the sword, however in my opinion, this looks fully like an original item from Thailand (then Siam) as it carries the distinctive features usually seen on them. The only thing that would suggest it being a European example would be its size, dha usually smaller (but I have seen them this large).
Artists were usually quite accurate in their depictions of detail used in their work, however sometimes various prop or accent items may be out of context as seen in Rembrandt's Biblical works.

ausjulius · 19th February 2017, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Henk, Kubur thanks!
What are the earliest accounts about dha we know?
May be it is Japanese tachi?

there was in this time large numbers of both europeans and japanee living in both burma and various kingdoms in thailand and there is dah from this time with japanese style fittings. tsuba. ect a. also japanese produced quantities for export of blades sold in south east asia and china.
additionally the japanese made court sword handles for sale to the dutch. mostly of copper or silver but with japanese style decorations.
i believe there was even chinese made handles sold in poland/lithuanian in the 16th century.

the whole "samurai sword" thing in south east asia well predates ww2.. there is examples of 16th century swords used in the philipines . thailand and java with japanese blades.
europeans were no different .. if something looks interesting people will buy it and use it .. just like the sri lankan kastane swords taken to europe in that time.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2017, 04:38 AM

Well noted Ausjulius,
The sword hilts fashioned in Japanese style in those alloys were termed 'shakudo' as described in Aylward (1945). I do believe that Chinese craftsmen were also brought into Polish workshops, I think Lvov, but need to find the reference (perhaps Ostrolski). Absolutely right, the European fascination with weapons exotica was prevalent in 17th and 18th centuries via the trade networks of the East Indies companies.

Gavin Nugent · 20th February 2017, 01:01 PM

An image worth noting in this link;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...39&postcount=4

Most swords were kept within the Royal House so perhaps by design it could predate the ruler... artist licence or a good effort as showing what it was in the day???

Gavin

11th February 2017, 07:28 PM	#6
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	The type of sword in the image reminds me of some swords in images posted on the forum some years ago from a European collection, which I won't try to pretend that I remember the name of. However I repost those images here, which show dha and Japanese influenced swords likely made for high ranking members of a European court, or fops such as that in the image. So, it stands to reason that dhas did end up in Europe and both could have been worn and influence European sword design, though one would expect the decoration on the example in the painting to be more European influenced such as those examples in the images I post (though they seem to be composites of Asian origin blades and some fittings and mainly European fittings). What is the origin of the painting? Polish? Regards LL Attached Images

11th February 2017, 07:51 PM	#7
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	Some more images. I believe this Dresden... The sword of Thomas Kapustran, Klauzenburg / Siebenbiurgen (Romania), 1674 Blade and scabbard, Japanese Also to stress that these are not mine, but a forum member who posted these some years ago, here is the link as well: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=662 best LL Attached Images

12th February 2017, 04:40 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Rembrandt ( 1606-1669) in his picture " Blinding of Samson" used Ceylonese spear and Balinese kris. Dutchmen traveled far and wide and early on, and brought back a lot of exotic souvenirs. Attached Images

11th February 2017, 04:22 PM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Henk, Kubur thanks! What are the earliest accounts about dha we know? May be it is Japanese tachi?

11th February 2017, 04:28 PM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I doubt it is a Japanese tachi. Wrong type of mounts, fittings and hanger. Rich

11th February 2017, 04:31 PM	#3
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	At this time Japan was cut off from the western world but South East Asia was in contact with the Dutch, Portuguese, and English. It looks like a Dha to me too.

11th February 2017, 06:22 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I am not sure of the title and origin of this painting, but it certainly appears of the Dutch masters schools and in accord with the period. This is most certainly a dha, and by the squared chape style probably Burmese or Thai but these regions at that time were of course under different national headings. It is interesting just how prevalent 'globalization ' was in these times, and Rembrandt was known for having quite a collection of arms and armour, often 'exotica' from these areas in the Dutch trade of the East Indies. SE Asia, in particular Viet Nam was regarded as Cochin China, and contact with these contiguous countries via Dutch factories in many of them including China proper, India and the many archipelagos would account for such items. Also interesting to see the dha and mounts in real time depiction establishing set period for the styling (though probably well established earlier).

11th February 2017, 07:16 PM	#5
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	I agree it is dha. However we know a lot of 19-20th swords "dha" and they are far different from the subject. Where are there such "dha" the same as on the picture?

12th February 2017, 06:09 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	You guys are amazing!! How you always find perfect illustrations and pertinent posts is outstanding to carry the discussion I'm glad you agree Mercenary that this is a Dutch painting. While I'm no art expert, it certainly has the 'feel' of Dutch masters . As I mentioned earlier, Rembrandt had a nominal collection of exotic weaponry from Indonesian and Asian areas which had been brought back by Dutch VOC ships. It would seem that his inclusion of these unusual weapons were placed in his works for 'effect', and it seems that other artists followed suit. The interaction between Europe and these exotic ports of call with various material culture and of course weaponry is well established. As seen, there were European versions of various forms from China and other Asian locations in style and decoration. The decoration known as Tonquinese was used through the 18th century on court and smallswords. In many cases Chinese and other artisans were brought into European shops to work on many of the 'exotic' forms. In the case of this dha, obviously we are looking at an artists conception of the sword, however in my opinion, this looks fully like an original item from Thailand (then Siam) as it carries the distinctive features usually seen on them. The only thing that would suggest it being a European example would be its size, dha usually smaller (but I have seen them this large). Artists were usually quite accurate in their depictions of detail used in their work, however sometimes various prop or accent items may be out of context as seen in Rembrandt's Biblical works.

19th February 2017, 04:38 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Well noted Ausjulius, The sword hilts fashioned in Japanese style in those alloys were termed 'shakudo' as described in Aylward (1945). I do believe that Chinese craftsmen were also brought into Polish workshops, I think Lvov, but need to find the reference (perhaps Ostrolski). Absolutely right, the European fascination with weapons exotica was prevalent in 17th and 18th centuries via the trade networks of the East Indies companies.

20th February 2017, 01:01 PM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	An image worth noting in this link; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...39&postcount=4 Most swords were kept within the Royal House so perhaps by design it could predate the ruler... artist licence or a good effort as showing what it was in the day??? Gavin