Omani barrel.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th January 2017, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Salaams Ibrahiim,

The parting of these barrels is a puzzlement to me, but well understand that a modern nitro powder is more than capable of such destruction.

These are the barrels that Robin Wiggington said were from "another part of India " when addressing two such barrels in Tipu Sultan's collection.
(Stocked up actually in a more modern European style, with snapping mechanisms and self-opening pans!)
Elgood believes Persian, though.

What I Do Not understand is;
Why do we not see these barrels on Persian arms, (correct me if I am wrong)
Or on Indian arms very often? I know of the two previously mentioned in Tipu Sultan's armoury, and One other from Sind, stocked in the Afghan style.
One would imagine wherever they came from before being traded into Oman, there would have been Some of them left in the country of origin.

Of interest is the fact that the cartouches in Tipu's barrels had Also been removed, so these and the ones you have Ibrahiim, may have had said cartouches removed for a Very long time!
Question if I may Ibrahiim;
Have you seen any of these barrels with the silver cartouche still in place?

Thank you for your time.
Richard.

The answer is I don't know the answer! This stuff is getting very rare however...I would estimate the number of battle swords left in Oman at less than 20...and I have never seen a spear except in books/museums....ever. How many barrels are left out there... not many...Please see http://www.muscatdaily.com/Archive/O...d-viewing-1znc and my thread at Canons of Oman where it is considered at the time that a number of Abu Futilla were European/German.

Pukka Bundook · 31st January 2017, 03:52 PM

Thank you for your reply, Ibrahiim.

Sad to think there are so few left out 'in the wild'!
Thank you for your link, a very interesting read, thouhg I had read it previously. :-)

Although some think possibly German origin for barrels of this type, I think the much stronger nod goes to Persia, as there is a Very close relationship (To me at any rate) between the ornamentation of the priming pan, And the guard finials found on the pulouar type of sword.
(The same ornamentation can also be seen on the rear sight of these barrels. )
Why this " dragon" design was so popular I don't know. But it is not the Only thing I don't know!
I have been looking on -line at arms from up in Sind and into Afghanistan, and there are a few of these barrels to be seen from that area! They are to be seen stocked up in the Afghan/ Sindi manner with the wide -flared buttstock. As this area of the world opens up into Persia, (Iran) the case seems Very strong for the latter being the origin of these barrels.

I will find and attach a photo of the pulouar hilt as time permits.

Best regards,
Richard.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th February 2017, 11:07 AM

Salaams Pukka Bundook, It is interesting that the dragon finials and dragons on tiles etc seems to have migrated across from Chinese to Persian designs and in the usual way that artisans were like spoils of war ...winner takes all...The classic Dragon style is the Dragon Chasing Fiery Pearl form like the style on the round plate below with a big central dragon and lesser dragons around the border...although the finials on quillons are a clear offshoot focused upon the dragon heads only...seen also on dragon head/serpentine locks on guns across a wide spectrum.

The Persian painting from FARIDUN IN THE GUISE OF A DRAGON TESTS HIS SONS: ILLUSTRATED FOLIO (F.42) FROM THE SHAHNAMEH OF SHAH TAHMASP, ATTRIBUTED TO AQA MIRAK, PERSIA, TABRIZ,illustrated with a white horse bottom right in the picture. ...Also displayed is Rostam fighting the big blue dragon about to slash it with his sword and many other examples in architecture, painting, metalworking, sculpture, ceramics,and illustrations on calligraphy and poetry etc etc display examples from Chinese influence including dragon form on Persian artefacts.

Dragon handles often adorn ewars and Jugs from Persia..also illustrated below. The Mughal rulers of India, who descended from rulers of Persia, inherited a taste for Chinese ceramics from their royal predecessors. Both Persian and Mughal painting frequently include images of Chinese ceramics, attesting to their popularity.

The black coloured Quillons with Dragon Finials is example of the use of dragons in Timurid weaponry similarly pictured in Islamic Arms by the late Anthony North..made of Jade.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th February 2017, 12:14 PM

Flicking back to guns... As you say there are two places where a dragon is included in Abu Futila design ...The pan and accompanying metalwork showing a dragons head and secondly The rear sight unit....

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th February 2017, 12:16 PM

Pukka Bundook · 5th February 2017, 02:33 PM

Thank you for adding these photos Ibrahiim, they do show the dragon well, and relationship between the sword finials and pan area.

All I can say is that there is more likelihood of these barrels coming from Persia or Northern India/Afghanistan, than there is of them coming from Germany as some think, and this because of the dragon heads.
I do not know of any Germanic tradition of using dragon heads on gun parts, Other than the serpent which holds the match....and cannons at the mouth.
Having said that, Germanic and Italian barrels from the 1500's could indeed be fluted Very like these!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th February 2017, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Thank you for adding these photos Ibrahiim, they do show the dragon well, and relationship between the sword finials and pan area.

All I can say is that there is more likelihood of these barrels coming from Persia or Northern India/Afghanistan, than there is of them coming from Germany as some think, and this because of the dragon heads.
I do not know of any Germanic tradition of using dragon heads on gun parts, Other than the serpent which holds the match....and cannons at the mouth.
Having said that, Germanic and Italian barrels from the 1500's could indeed be fluted Very like these!

Salaams Pukka Bundook~I have seen Portuguese and other European dragon/serpent locks on guns and whilst searching for a European armoury thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22315
I stumbled on this below...

Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...tols&f=falseon about page 127...128 showing dragon/serpentine locks. Fine detail on page 127 and the following pages goes on to further discuss the origins of the Dragon Motif on European guns.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Pukka Bundook · 6th February 2017, 03:01 PM

Dear Ibrahiim,

I too have seen dragon/serpent decoration on European Locks, but it is on the barrels, (apart from cannon), that I can not recall seeing dragons represented. The decoration on these in the O. P still appears Indo-Persian....with more of the emphasis on the Persian part!

As time permits, I will spend longer looking though! Some Italian barrels once owned by Henry V111 were fluted Vey like these in question, but do not recall any such dragon device around the pan.

Interesting subject, and one that is as painstaking as an archaeological dig!

Below are comparison between pulouar finials and pan decoration;

5th February 2017, 11:07 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Pukka Bundook, It is interesting that the dragon finials and dragons on tiles etc seems to have migrated across from Chinese to Persian designs and in the usual way that artisans were like spoils of war ...winner takes all...The classic Dragon style is the Dragon Chasing Fiery Pearl form like the style on the round plate below with a big central dragon and lesser dragons around the border...although the finials on quillons are a clear offshoot focused upon the dragon heads only...seen also on dragon head/serpentine locks on guns across a wide spectrum. The Persian painting from FARIDUN IN THE GUISE OF A DRAGON TESTS HIS SONS: ILLUSTRATED FOLIO (F.42) FROM THE SHAHNAMEH OF SHAH TAHMASP, ATTRIBUTED TO AQA MIRAK, PERSIA, TABRIZ,illustrated with a white horse bottom right in the picture. ...Also displayed is Rostam fighting the big blue dragon about to slash it with his sword and many other examples in architecture, painting, metalworking, sculpture, ceramics,and illustrations on calligraphy and poetry etc etc display examples from Chinese influence including dragon form on Persian artefacts. Dragon handles often adorn ewars and Jugs from Persia..also illustrated below. The Mughal rulers of India, who descended from rulers of Persia, inherited a taste for Chinese ceramics from their royal predecessors. Both Persian and Mughal painting frequently include images of Chinese ceramics, attesting to their popularity. The black coloured Quillons with Dragon Finials is example of the use of dragons in Timurid weaponry similarly pictured in Islamic Arms by the late Anthony North..made of Jade. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 6th February 2017 at 08:07 AM.

5th February 2017, 12:14 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Flicking back to guns... As you say there are two places where a dragon is included in Abu Futila design ...The pan and accompanying metalwork showing a dragons head and secondly The rear sight unit.... Attached Images

6th February 2017, 03:01 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear Ibrahiim, I too have seen dragon/serpent decoration on European Locks, but it is on the barrels, (apart from cannon), that I can not recall seeing dragons represented. The decoration on these in the O. P still appears Indo-Persian....with more of the emphasis on the Persian part! As time permits, I will spend longer looking though! Some Italian barrels once owned by Henry V111 were fluted Vey like these in question, but do not recall any such dragon device around the pan. Interesting subject, and one that is as painstaking as an archaeological dig! Below are comparison between pulouar finials and pan decoration; Attached Images Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 6th February 2017 at 03:25 PM.

31st January 2017, 03:52 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thank you for your reply, Ibrahiim. Sad to think there are so few left out 'in the wild'! Thank you for your link, a very interesting read, thouhg I had read it previously. :-) Although some think possibly German origin for barrels of this type, I think the much stronger nod goes to Persia, as there is a Very close relationship (To me at any rate) between the ornamentation of the priming pan, And the guard finials found on the pulouar type of sword. (The same ornamentation can also be seen on the rear sight of these barrels. ) Why this " dragon" design was so popular I don't know. But it is not the Only thing I don't know! I have been looking on -line at arms from up in Sind and into Afghanistan, and there are a few of these barrels to be seen from that area! They are to be seen stocked up in the Afghan/ Sindi manner with the wide -flared buttstock. As this area of the world opens up into Persia, (Iran) the case seems Very strong for the latter being the origin of these barrels. I will find and attach a photo of the pulouar hilt as time permits. Best regards, Richard.

5th February 2017, 12:16 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408

5th February 2017, 02:33 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thank you for adding these photos Ibrahiim, they do show the dragon well, and relationship between the sword finials and pan area. All I can say is that there is more likelihood of these barrels coming from Persia or Northern India/Afghanistan, than there is of them coming from Germany as some think, and this because of the dragon heads. I do not know of any Germanic tradition of using dragon heads on gun parts, Other than the serpent which holds the match....and cannons at the mouth. Having said that, Germanic and Italian barrels from the 1500's could indeed be fluted Very like these!