Kris with a repaired ganya?

[Battara]

So far I will agree that this is not a separate ganga, and that this is Sulu.

Based on the style of okir, ron do at the back of the ganga, and the way the blade as made just before the ganga, I would even place this in the 1960s. I have seen and even owned one just like this with provenance of the 1960s.

Kai, I would like to see your research and references regarding the Mindanao production of early kris without separate gangas.

[David]

While i would agree with Kai that you can indeed find kris pre-1930 that do not have a separate gangya and kris post-1930 that do have separate gangya i will still maintain my position that this kris is at least post-WWII and could, as José has suggested, be as recent as the 1960s. One must always look beyond Cato's "rules" for dating at the approach and quality. Though i have seen numerous post-WWII kris that are wonderfully forged we do see a general decline during this period. Obviously we can also find older kris that are poor quality. So i would say that it is not the quality level per se that helps us date a kris as much as the actual approach and look of that bad execution, if that makes any sense. This looks like a nice effort on a later production kris to my eyes.

[Green]

A couple more questions:

here's the other side of scabbard with mother of pearl (?) decoration (two pieces missing. Is this kind of scabbard typical of mid 20th century style and possibly original to the blade ?.

The top part of the scabbard did not have rattan(?) bindings. For a complete scabbard, does the binding continue up or this part is decorated in some other fashion?

[kai]

Hello Nik,

Why did you hide this from us?

Quite nice carving!

here's the other side of scabbard with mother of pearl (?) decoration (two pieces missing. Is this kind of scabbard typical of mid 20th century style and possibly original to the blade ?.

This scabbard type is 20th century but doesn't help much in narrowing things down for this kris, I guess.

The top part of the scabbard did not have rattan(?) bindings. For a complete scabbard, does the binding continue up or this part is decorated in some other fashion?

Judging from the patina of the wood, I'd guess that the rattan was covering it fully.

Regards,
Kai

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Green

A couple more questions:


.... The top part of the scabbard did not have rattan(?) bindings. For a complete scabbard, does the binding continue up or this part is decorated in some other fashion?

Hello! What's missing is a piece of cloth wrapped around the top of the sheath just below the crosspiece. I've been told that inside it is a piece of paper inscribed with holy verses. It is meant to serve as a talisman (anting-anting). Attached is an example from my collection showing a similar scabbard with the wrapping.

F de Luzon

[F. de Luzon]

The cloth also serves a practical purpose. It can protect your hand from injury.

The two sides of the scabbard are made of thin pieces of wood, bound together by rattan/nito vine. Over time, the rattan/nito becomes frail and can easily break when the sword is drawn. I've heard of several cases of palms and fingers being cut by the blade as a result of the forceful removal of the sword from this kind of scabbard. This can happen when the blade becomes rusty and difficult to draw out. Always exercise caution especially if the sword fits tightly in the scabbard.

The cloth is wrapped several times around the sheath. It is thus thicker than the rattan/nito. Your hand will be safer holding the scabbard by the cloth when drawing the sword rather than by the rattan/nito. That is on the assumption that the cloth is strong, bound thickly and tight.

Again, always exercise extra caution when drawing the sword from this kind of scabbard.

Here are some more examples for your reference.

[Spunjer]

Hello Nik,
here's another pretty recent kalis you can compare yours with:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kalis

[Green]

Ron; Thanks for the link.

F de Luzon;

Good idea about wraping up with cloth on the top part of the scabbard where the rattan bainding is now missing. But I believe the scabbard has the rattan all the way up to the cross piece originally.

I have people here that do rattan works (for chairs and such) who can easily put new rattan binding at this missing part - although I'm very sure they can not replicate the original exactly. The original looks v brittle now and was protected by previous owner with transparent tape which is peeling off now. I'm not sure if I should do this (new rattan binding for missing part) or just use cloth binding which is a lot easier or leave the thing as it is.

****

I recieved the kris last week (see pics with purplish mat background). The cross piece decoration is very similar to some barongs. I did a little bit of amateurish cleaning with vineger (see pics with red background) . The blade showed 'pamor' and laminated(?). Is this usual for Kris? the okir look quite nice to me.

[Ian]

de Luzon:

Are these all yours? Or might they come from a certain shop in Ermita owned by Mr. Ven?

Ian.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

The cloth also serves a practical purpose. It can protect your hand from injury.

The two sides of the scabbard are made of thin pieces of wood, bound together by rattan/nito vine. Over time, the rattan/nito becomes frail and can easily break when the sword is drawn. I've heard of several cases of palms and fingers being cut by the blade as a result of the forceful removal of the sword from this kind of scabbard. This can happen when the blade becomes rusty and difficult to draw out. Always exercise caution especially if the sword fits tightly in the scabbard.

The cloth is wrapped several times around the sheath. It is thus thicker than the rattan/nito. Your hand will be safer holding the scabbard by the cloth when drawing the sword rather than by the rattan/nito. That is on the assumption that the cloth is strong, bound thickly and tight.

Again, always exercise extra caution when drawing the sword from this kind of scabbard.

Here are some more examples for your reference.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Ian

de Luzon:

Are these all yours? Or might they come from a certain shop in Ermita owned by Mr. Ven?

Ian.

Hello Ian, Only the one in the first photograph is mine. The second picture shows krises on display at that particular shop. I did not provide attribution to avoid violating forum rules.

F. de Luzon

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Green

A couple more questions:

here's the other side of scabbard with mother of pearl (?) decoration (two pieces missing. Is this kind of scabbard typical of mid 20th century style and possibly original to the blade ?.

The top part of the scabbard did not have rattan(?) bindings. For a complete scabbard, does the binding continue up or this part is decorated in some other fashion?

I have had some thought about this type of kris since I too owned, briefly one with a similar warangka and hilt.

It seemed to me these were made in a left hand construction.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

I have had some thought about this type of kris since I too owned, briefly one with a similar warangka and hilt.

It seemed to me these were made in a left hand construction.

I believe that might depend entirely upon how the kris is oriented on the body and how it is drawn from the sheath.
Note that in these three cases at least the sheath is oriented in the stash with the front edge of the blade facing upward.
Drawing the blade in this manner has the advantage of placing the blade in a downward striking from a single motion as the blade is removed from the sheath.

[milandro]

could be, however, in both cases where the people have their weapon in they hands the pommel would certainly interfere with their wrist if they were to point down the kris even slightly. You can see for example the with the octagonal horse hoof pommel the person drawing it in that position has to do so by positioning the wrist in the inside , once drawn though even simply in the horizontal position the hoof would hit the wrist.

[kai]

Hello André,

could be, however, in both cases where the people have their weapon in they hands the pommel would certainly interfere with their wrist if they were to point down the kris even slightly. You can see for example the with the octagonal horse hoof pommel the person drawing it in that position has to do so by positioning the wrist in the inside , once drawn though even simply in the horizontal position the hoof would hit the wrist.

Note that this just the initial stage of drawing (and staged at that) - the final grip will be different.

There also is a reason why jungayan pommels are not preferred for actual fighting (they do but more simple hilts will perform more easily).

And a lot of fighting styles don't rely heavily on extended wrists...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello David,

This looks like a nice effort on a later production kris to my eyes.

Looks like we're on the same page...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Jose,

I have seen and even owned one just like this with provenance of the 1960s.

Works for me. Did the provenance establish production in the 60s? If so, where did it originate from?

Kai, I would like to see your research and references regarding the Mindanao production of early kris without separate gangas.

No research yet, at least not conclusive enough for publication.

I'll try to post a few examples later.

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

Originally Posted by kai

Works for me. Did the provenance establish production in the 60s? If so, where did it originate from?

Good question Kai. Yes it actually did establish 1960s production from Sulu/Jolo Island.

Also the scabbard was similar to this scabbard. And Green, the missing pieces were mother-of-pearl, like the other pieces.

[Green]

Many thanks all for a very good and clear explanation!