Older Toledo? Blade, Makers Marks I.D.

Norman McCormick · 10th January 2017, 07:11 PM

Hi Jim,
Thanks as always for your thoughts. I did suspect that your interest may be peaked by the fraternal associations of this sword. I did of course look in to this association but I hit a brick wall as to the exact Order or Group that the symbolism referred to. I'm not sure what you mean by animal figures/sheep? Thanks again for your interest and input.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Maybe someone will I.D. the I.B. under the crown as it seems distinctive enough to have been catalogued somewhere along the line.

P.P.S. It would appear the blade and hilt have been together for some time.

fernando · 10th January 2017, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

...P.S. Maybe someone will I.D. the I.B. under the crown as it seems distinctive enough to have been catalogued somewhere along the line...

Apparently not an easy task, Norman; i, for one, have revolved heavens and earth and had no results. Hopefully someone will succeed.

Norman McCormick · 10th January 2017, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Apparently not an easy task, Norman; i, for one, have revolved heavens and earth and had no results. Hopefully someone will succeed.

Hi Fernando,
Many thanks for your efforts on my behalf as always.

I have tried Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie amongst other resources but have come up with nil as well. As you say maybe the cartouche will ring a bell with someone sometime. Once again thanks for taking the time and effort to search for an answer.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 10th January 2017, 09:35 PM

Hi Jim,
I have another couple of 'different' swords to post so I hope you have your deerstalker to hand.

My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2017, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
I have another couple of 'different' swords to post so I hope you have your deerstalker to hand.

My Regards,
Norman.

...and the Drambuie!!!.....the games afoot !!

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2017, 04:19 AM

I think I might have it!!!
According to the Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962 p.302 A595) a rapier by Jasper Bongen the elder, Solingen around 1620 with blade more in accord with usual form with narrowed ricasso. The mark is a crowned B.

According to Kinman ("European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks", 2015, p.14) this maker is recorded 1600-50, and his mark was a cartouche with IB and a crown, but in horizontal posture. There seem to have been variations of the mark, and his son 1640-75 used variations of a crowned ox.

I would say this is an arming rapier blade by Jasper Bongen the elder in Solingen first half 17th c . with the triple marks following the Wundes kings heads manner.

fernando · 12th January 2017, 12:43 PM

Jim, if you allow me, you are a master researcher and your conclusions must be taken into decisive account but, as you well mention, you might (only might) have it.
The marks that are shown in Wallace A595 ... and eventually A596, are precisely the same as shown by Gyngell ... as if they had the same printing origin and, as you well know, have no slight resemblance with the one seen in Norman's blade. As i ignore Kinmans's work (from which i would like to have a copy) i am compelled to accept the allusion to the horizontal crowned IB. I take it that such is only a written description, that not an actual design of the mark. A pity we can not see such cartouche; the IB font in Norman's blade is 'so strict', when compared to the (sort of) Italic B applied in the marks currently disposed. Not to speak that the blade in Wallace A595 is so distinct from the one discussed here, as they were forged by different hands but, that is another deal.
Pay not much attention to my inconsistent approach, as i obviously stand to b corrected.

.

.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2017, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
Thanks as always for your thoughts. I did suspect that your interest may be peaked by the fraternal associations of this sword. I did of course look in to this association but I hit a brick wall as to the exact Order or Group that the symbolism referred to. I'm not sure what you mean by animal figures/sheep? Thanks again for your interest and input.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Maybe someone will I.D. the I.B. under the crown as it seems distinctive enough to have been catalogued somewhere along the line.

P.P.S. It would appear the blade and hilt have been together for some time.

You're most welcome Norman, and as always, I thank you for sharing the great and interesting pieces you always find!
The 'animal' figures are at either side of the cross in the quillon terminal decoration, but look 'tailed' so maybe a lion (?) Masonic symbolism is wrought with so many devices and allegoric decoration its hard to really decode.
I agree this seems to have been together some time, and certainly in the 19th c using a very old blade.
I have searched through all marking sources I could find and nothing on the IB. Its manner and configuration are consistant with Solingen markings of these times and much like the kings heads of Wundes, which occur in varying number. The crown is of style used on German marks.
Pending further information, the Brach family still seems a plausible maker.

10th January 2017, 07:11 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Jim, Thanks as always for your thoughts. I did suspect that your interest may be peaked by the fraternal associations of this sword. I did of course look in to this association but I hit a brick wall as to the exact Order or Group that the symbolism referred to. I'm not sure what you mean by animal figures/sheep? Thanks again for your interest and input. My Regards, Norman. P.S. Maybe someone will I.D. the I.B. under the crown as it seems distinctive enough to have been catalogued somewhere along the line. P.P.S. It would appear the blade and hilt have been together for some time. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 10th January 2017 at 07:22 PM.

12th January 2017, 12:43 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, if you allow me, you are a master researcher and your conclusions must be taken into decisive account but, as you well mention, you might (only might) have it. The marks that are shown in Wallace A595 ... and eventually A596, are precisely the same as shown by Gyngell ... as if they had the same printing origin and, as you well know, have no slight resemblance with the one seen in Norman's blade. As i ignore Kinmans's work (from which i would like to have a copy) i am compelled to accept the allusion to the horizontal crowned IB. I take it that such is only a written description, that not an actual design of the mark. A pity we can not see such cartouche; the IB font in Norman's blade is 'so strict', when compared to the (sort of) Italic B applied in the marks currently disposed. Not to speak that the blade in Wallace A595 is so distinct from the one discussed here, as they were forged by different hands but, that is another deal. Pay not much attention to my inconsistent approach, as i obviously stand to b corrected. . . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 12th January 2017 at 03:26 PM.

10th January 2017, 09:35 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Jim, I have another couple of 'different' swords to post so I hope you have your deerstalker to hand. My Regards, Norman.

12th January 2017, 04:19 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I think I might have it!!! According to the Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962 p.302 A595) a rapier by Jasper Bongen the elder, Solingen around 1620 with blade more in accord with usual form with narrowed ricasso. The mark is a crowned B. According to Kinman ("European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks", 2015, p.14) this maker is recorded 1600-50, and his mark was a cartouche with IB and a crown, but in horizontal posture. There seem to have been variations of the mark, and his son 1640-75 used variations of a crowned ox. I would say this is an arming rapier blade by Jasper Bongen the elder in Solingen first half 17th c . with the triple marks following the Wundes kings heads manner.