F. de Luzon's Moro Kris Collection

Sajen · 1st January 2017, 10:13 AM

Hello F. de Luzon,

nice pieces!

I like special the second blade, very nice piece. I think that the scabbards from the first and second piece are recent but nothing wrong by this. Like Barry (Vandoo) I doubt that the inlays at the scabbard by the third kris from tortoise shell, I think they are from thin carved buffalo horn. What do you mean with "nito vine"? I would call it rattan.

And I also doubt that the pommel from the last piece is from rhino horn, most probable again buffalo horn. Can you post close ups from this pommel?

Also to you a Happy New Year!

Best regards,
Detlef

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 03:21 PM

Thank you Detlef! I bought the first three from the same antique dealer and I was told that the blades are pre-1930s but the scabbards are from the 1950s.

The scabbard with inlay (#3) is said to be distinct to the Tausug of Sulu. I was told that it is made of tortoise shell but I can see that carabao horn is also a probability. A portion of the center of the back of the wrangka was chipped and lifted when I bought it, so I repaired it using a knife and sandpaper. I noticed that the material is layered and fibrous. Although I am not an expert, the shavings/chips did not feel like horn which makes tortoise shell a probability. I will post detailed close-ups and I hope you can help me identify the material. I might eventually approach an expert to examine and determine the material scientifically.

Nito is a vine found in the hinterlands of Mindanao, Philippines which is used for handicrafts. I brought the scabbard to a nito handicrafts manufacturer but upon comparing, it turned out to be a finer material than the kind of nito they are using. The manufacturer could not identify it and said that it could be a variety endemic to the island of Sulu.

Regarding the pommel of #4, again carabao horn is a probability. I will post close-ups from various angles and again, I hope you can help me identify the material.

All the best,

F. de Luzon

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 03:33 PM

Close up of details of #1

Jungayan hilt
Ivory pommel
faded etching

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 03:36 PM

Close up of details of #2:

Metal Work, hilt and pommel.
Pommel details. Is it wood?

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 03:38 PM

Close up of details of #3:

Wrangka, inlaid front and plain back

Buntut, inlaid front and plain back

kai · 1st January 2017, 06:01 PM

Thanks for posting the additional pics! (I was slow with my reply...

)

Quote:

Close up of details of #3:
Wrangka, inlaid front and plain back
Buntut, inlaid front and plain back

The plain backsides do look carabao to me. The front sides don't come out very well but are mottled and seem to have a different surface structure: could be tortoise, indeed.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 1st January 2017, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

The front sides don't come out very well but are mottled and seem to have a different surface structure: could be tortoise, indeed.

Hi Kai,

would be the first time that I see tortoise on such a scabbard, do you have an example you can show?

Best regards,
Detlef

Robert · 1st January 2017, 07:20 PM

Quote:

The plain backsides do look carabao to me. The front sides don't come out very well but are mottled and seem to have a different surface structure: could be tortoise, indeed.

Most if not all of the mottled look to the carabao horn on the front of the scabbard is delamination (separation of the layers in the horn) that was most likely caused by the heat created when the holes were first drilled into it. If enough heat is generated from the use of dull drilling tools this damage can be seen when first done or not until years later when drying and shrinkage from age can affect the horn and put extra stress on the material at these points. Impact from other objects can cause this as well. JMHO.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 1st January 2017, 09:57 PM

Congratulations on your new collection!

Kris 1:
Looks to me to be a crossover Maguindanao/Sulu blade with a recent clamp. I also think the hilt is much later, made of gold plated brass filigree. But the ivory pommel looks to me to be a later carving style and the patina might be artificially done to make it look older (an old Filipino/Moro trick for quicker sales). Blade might be turn of 20th century. This type of hilt is for datus and other nobility.

The scabbard is new and Sulu.

Kris 2:
This is truly nice - a great and fantastic Maranao blade! The pommel is nice burled and patina narra wood. I find this the best of the 3. Maybe for a high ranking warrior but not a datu?

The scabbard is recent, but truly Maranao in okir and wranga (top of scabbard) style.

Kris 3:
This kris seems to have an early 20th century crossover Sulu blade. The pommel may be the same time period, though I often see these on 1950s pieces. Not sure if the hilt rings are silver or silver plate over copper (they are newer and I have seen plated copper before).

The scabbard is recent Sulu with aluminum accents through out the scabbard (plates and pins), and sections of mother-of-pearl, and colored bone inside plates of carabao horn. The wrappings are rattan.

Kris 4:
This kris appears to be from the end of the 19th to the turn of the 20th century. The blade is Maranao but the clamps seem Sulu-ish to me. The pommel style is danganan and is somewhat rare, being made of solid horn. For a high ranking warrior or a low ranking datu? Good to have the hemp wrap complete with only some of the lacquer worn off. Too bad the pommel "tail" is broken off.

All of these kris could use some acid etching to bring out the different laminations in the blades, which they did.

I hope these answer some of your questions. You are off to a good start!

F. de Luzon · 3rd January 2017, 12:48 AM

Thanks Kai, Detlef, Vandoo, Robert and Battara for your insights! I'm developing an even greater appreciation of these swords because of your comments. Much appreciated!

F. de Luzon · 4th January 2017, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Congratulations on your new collection!

Kris 1:
Looks to me to be a crossover Maguindanao/Sulu blade with a recent clamp. I also think the hilt is much later, made of gold plated brass filigree. But the ivory pommel looks to me to be a later carving style and the patina might be artificially done to make it look older (an old Filipino/Moro trick for quicker sales). Blade might be turn of 20th century. This type of hilt is for datus and other nobility.

The scabbard is new and Sulu.

Kris 2:
This is truly nice - a great and fantastic Maranao blade! The pommel is nice burled and patina narra wood. I find this the best of the 3. Maybe for a high ranking warrior but not a datu?

The scabbard is recent, but truly Maranao in okir and wranga (top of scabbard) style.

Kris 3:
This kris seems to have an early 20th century crossover Sulu blade. The pommel may be the same time period, though I often see these on 1950s pieces. Not sure if the hilt rings are silver or silver plate over copper (they are newer and I have seen plated copper before).

The scabbard is recent Sulu with aluminum accents through out the scabbard (plates and pins), and sections of mother-of-pearl, and colored bone inside plates of carabao horn. The wrappings are rattan.

Kris 4:
This kris appears to be from the end of the 19th to the turn of the 20th century. The blade is Maranao but the clamps seem Sulu-ish to me. The pommel style is danganan and is somewhat rare, being made of solid horn. For a high ranking warrior or a low ranking datu? Good to have the hemp wrap complete with only some of the lacquer worn off. Too bad the pommel "tail" is broken off.

All of these kris could use some acid etching to bring out the different laminations in the blades, which they did.

I hope these answer some of your questions. You are off to a good start!

Thanks for the thorough discussion and the encouragement, Battara!

F. de Luzon · 3rd January 2017, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Kai,

would be the first time that I see tortoise on such a scabbard, do you have an example you can show?

Best regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

Sajen · 7th January 2017, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Hi Detlef,

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

Hi F. de Luzon,

yes agree, the plate on the small picture seems to be indeed from turtle shell. The other picture isn't clear enough to build me an opinion.

Regards,
Detlef

Robert · 7th January 2017, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

Hello F. de Luzon, Though the smaller photo in post #24 shows what looks like decorative hawksbill turtle shell plates on the scabbard without being able to see these in person it would be almost impossible to tell if they are real, or faux turtle shell made from bull or buffalo horn or even plastic. All of these materials should be readily available in the Philippines. I would be leary about spending the money usually associated with items made from genuine turtle shell without having it checked by an expert first. I believe that hawksbill are a protected species so if you purchase anything made from their shell (if it is even legal to own there) it would most likely be illegal to export.

Best,
Robert

BANDOOK · 30th January 2017, 09:57 AM

Here is another example which does not belong to me,but thought would share it for discussion
regards Rajesh

Victrix · 29th May 2017, 09:54 PM

This book may be of interest to the historically inclined amongst you.

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 03:42 PM

Close up of details of #4:

Pommel from various angles. What kind of horn is it?

kai · 1st January 2017, 05:08 PM

Very nice presentation, F! Please also add putatively "lesser" pieces as often enough much can be learned from those, too.

Those 4 examples all look like good, antique blades to me - congrats! Did you source all from within the PI? (All 3 scabbards appear to be post-WW2, with the first 2 of quite recent manufacture as suggested by the other forumites already.)

I'm with Detlef that the hilt #4 is from water buffalo as well as probably the scabbard #3 (the metal on the latter is aluminium, I assume?).

Could you please post close-ups of the base of the blade (and pommel, too)?
I'd suggest discussing each of these pieces in dedicated threads for in-depth analysis - otherwise it will get confusing in no time...

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 1st January 2017, 05:28 PM

Agree with Kai, nice presentation!

Both, the inlays and also the pommel are definitive from water buffalo horn IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef

VANDOO · 1st January 2017, 05:32 PM

KRIS #4 POMMEL IS DEFINITELY NOT RHINO HORN WHICH IS GOOD AS CUSTOMS WILL NOT BOTHER YOU.

THE LAYERS YOU SEE IS WHAT IS FOUND IN CARABO AKA WATER BUFFALO HORN. THIS LOOKS LIKE AN OLDER PIECE DUE TO THE WEAR AND CRACKS. THERE IS A GOOD POST IN THE FORUM WITH PICTURES THAT CAN HELP YOU LEARN TO SPOT RHINO HORN. BUT ALL RHINO AND OTHER MATERIALS CAN VARY IT IS SOMETIMES DIFFICULT EVEN THEN. I REALLY CAN'T TELL ON THE INLAYED PIECES ON THE SCABBARD SOME SEA TURTLE SHELL CAN LOOK LIKE THAT IF IT IS OLD THICK AND UNPOLISHED BUT SO CAN A THIN SLICE OF HORN. THE INLAY IS INTERESTING USING MOTHER OF PEARL, HORN AND SOME RED AND BLUE SUBSTANCE. LIKELY THE SCABBARD WAS DONE AROUND WW2. SOME OF THE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE PHILIPPINE COLLECTORS WILL LIKELY BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU MORE INFORMATION.

kai · 1st January 2017, 06:06 PM

Quote:

SOME RED AND BLUE SUBSTANCE.

Hard plastic? Or more like glass?

F. de Luzon · 3rd January 2017, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Very nice presentation, F! Please also add putatively "lesser" pieces as often enough much can be learned from those, too.

Those 4 examples all look like good, antique blades to me - congrats! Did you source all from within the PI? (All 3 scabbards appear to be post-WW2, with the first 2 of quite recent manufacture as suggested by the other forumites already.)

I'm with Detlef that the hilt #4 is from water buffalo as well as probably the scabbard #3 (the metal on the latter is aluminium, I assume?).

Could you please post close-ups of the base of the blade (and pommel, too)?
I'd suggest discussing each of these pieces in dedicated threads for in-depth analysis - otherwise it will get confusing in no time...

Regards,
Kai

Thanks Kai! Yes, I found the first three in Manila but it wasn't easy. Here's the additional closeups you requested. :-)

1st January 2017, 03:38 PM	#5
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Close ups #3 Close up of details of #3: Wrangka, inlaid front and plain back Buntut, inlaid front and plain back Attached Images

30th January 2017, 09:57 AM	#15
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	ANOTHER 19th century Moro Sondang -Mindano region Here is another example which does not belong to me,but thought would share it for discussion regards Rajesh Attached Images

29th May 2017, 09:54 PM	#16
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	This book may be of interest to the historically inclined amongst you. Attached Images

1st January 2017, 03:42 PM	#17
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Close ups #4 Close up of details of #4: Pommel from various angles. What kind of horn is it? Attached Images

1st January 2017, 10:13 AM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello F. de Luzon, nice pieces! I like special the second blade, very nice piece. I think that the scabbards from the first and second piece are recent but nothing wrong by this. Like Barry (Vandoo) I doubt that the inlays at the scabbard by the third kris from tortoise shell, I think they are from thin carved buffalo horn. What do you mean with "nito vine"? I would call it rattan. And I also doubt that the pommel from the last piece is from rhino horn, most probable again buffalo horn. Can you post close ups from this pommel? Also to you a Happy New Year! Best regards, Detlef

1st January 2017, 03:21 PM	#2
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Thank you Detlef! I bought the first three from the same antique dealer and I was told that the blades are pre-1930s but the scabbards are from the 1950s. The scabbard with inlay (#3) is said to be distinct to the Tausug of Sulu. I was told that it is made of tortoise shell but I can see that carabao horn is also a probability. A portion of the center of the back of the wrangka was chipped and lifted when I bought it, so I repaired it using a knife and sandpaper. I noticed that the material is layered and fibrous. Although I am not an expert, the shavings/chips did not feel like horn which makes tortoise shell a probability. I will post detailed close-ups and I hope you can help me identify the material. I might eventually approach an expert to examine and determine the material scientifically. Nito is a vine found in the hinterlands of Mindanao, Philippines which is used for handicrafts. I brought the scabbard to a nito handicrafts manufacturer but upon comparing, it turned out to be a finer material than the kind of nito they are using. The manufacturer could not identify it and said that it could be a variety endemic to the island of Sulu. Regarding the pommel of #4, again carabao horn is a probability. I will post close-ups from various angles and again, I hope you can help me identify the material. All the best, F. de Luzon

1st January 2017, 03:33 PM	#3
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Close ups #1 Close up of details of #1 Jungayan hilt Ivory pommel faded etching Attached Images

1st January 2017, 03:36 PM	#4
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Close ups #2 Close up of details of #2: Metal Work, hilt and pommel. Pommel details. Is it wood? Attached Images

1st January 2017, 09:57 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Congratulations on your new collection! Kris 1: Looks to me to be a crossover Maguindanao/Sulu blade with a recent clamp. I also think the hilt is much later, made of gold plated brass filigree. But the ivory pommel looks to me to be a later carving style and the patina might be artificially done to make it look older (an old Filipino/Moro trick for quicker sales). Blade might be turn of 20th century. This type of hilt is for datus and other nobility. The scabbard is new and Sulu. Kris 2: This is truly nice - a great and fantastic Maranao blade! The pommel is nice burled and patina narra wood. I find this the best of the 3. Maybe for a high ranking warrior but not a datu? The scabbard is recent, but truly Maranao in okir and wranga (top of scabbard) style. Kris 3: This kris seems to have an early 20th century crossover Sulu blade. The pommel may be the same time period, though I often see these on 1950s pieces. Not sure if the hilt rings are silver or silver plate over copper (they are newer and I have seen plated copper before). The scabbard is recent Sulu with aluminum accents through out the scabbard (plates and pins), and sections of mother-of-pearl, and colored bone inside plates of carabao horn. The wrappings are rattan. Kris 4: This kris appears to be from the end of the 19th to the turn of the 20th century. The blade is Maranao but the clamps seem Sulu-ish to me. The pommel style is danganan and is somewhat rare, being made of solid horn. For a high ranking warrior or a low ranking datu? Good to have the hemp wrap complete with only some of the lacquer worn off. Too bad the pommel "tail" is broken off. All of these kris could use some acid etching to bring out the different laminations in the blades, which they did. I hope these answer some of your questions. You are off to a good start!

3rd January 2017, 12:48 AM	#10
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Thanks Kai, Detlef, Vandoo, Robert and Battara for your insights! I'm developing an even greater appreciation of these swords because of your comments. Much appreciated!

1st January 2017, 05:08 PM	#18
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Very nice presentation, F! Please also add putatively "lesser" pieces as often enough much can be learned from those, too. Those 4 examples all look like good, antique blades to me - congrats! Did you source all from within the PI? (All 3 scabbards appear to be post-WW2, with the first 2 of quite recent manufacture as suggested by the other forumites already.) I'm with Detlef that the hilt #4 is from water buffalo as well as probably the scabbard #3 (the metal on the latter is aluminium, I assume?). Could you please post close-ups of the base of the blade (and pommel, too)? I'd suggest discussing each of these pieces in dedicated threads for in-depth analysis - otherwise it will get confusing in no time... Regards, Kai

1st January 2017, 05:28 PM	#19
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Agree with Kai, nice presentation! Both, the inlays and also the pommel are definitive from water buffalo horn IMVHO. Regards, Detlef

1st January 2017, 05:32 PM	#20
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	KRIS #4 POMMEL IS DEFINITELY NOT RHINO HORN WHICH IS GOOD AS CUSTOMS WILL NOT BOTHER YOU. THE LAYERS YOU SEE IS WHAT IS FOUND IN CARABO AKA WATER BUFFALO HORN. THIS LOOKS LIKE AN OLDER PIECE DUE TO THE WEAR AND CRACKS. THERE IS A GOOD POST IN THE FORUM WITH PICTURES THAT CAN HELP YOU LEARN TO SPOT RHINO HORN. BUT ALL RHINO AND OTHER MATERIALS CAN VARY IT IS SOMETIMES DIFFICULT EVEN THEN. I REALLY CAN'T TELL ON THE INLAYED PIECES ON THE SCABBARD SOME SEA TURTLE SHELL CAN LOOK LIKE THAT IF IT IS OLD THICK AND UNPOLISHED BUT SO CAN A THIN SLICE OF HORN. THE INLAY IS INTERESTING USING MOTHER OF PEARL, HORN AND SOME RED AND BLUE SUBSTANCE. LIKELY THE SCABBARD WAS DONE AROUND WW2. SOME OF THE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE PHILIPPINE COLLECTORS WILL LIKELY BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU MORE INFORMATION.