Zanzibari (?) Saif for Comment

ariel · 27th December 2016, 09:28 PM

Well, as Alice would say, curiosier and curiosier...
I hear your points, but I am still puzzled.
Perhaps , in the 19 century Oman was an oasis of tranquility, but the neighboring areas were not. In what is now Saudi Arabia clans clashed all the time, and swords were as embedded in the daily life as kaffiyas. In Yemen, jambiyas are as needed for male attire as pants., and until recently their blades were of fighting quality. Elgood wrote that Hungarian blades were highly prized there in part for their ability to emit sounds during dancing; a hint that dancing was performed with real battle swords.
No Khevsur, Georgian or Zeibek had a special dancing sword, and they danced a lot.

But you must have access to information that is not available to the foreigners...... be it as it may.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th December 2016, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, as Alice would say, curiosier and curiosier...
I hear your points, but I am still puzzled.
Perhaps , in the 19 century Oman was an oasis of tranquility, but the neighboring areas were not. In what is now Saudi Arabia clans clashed all the time, and swords were as embedded in the daily life as kaffiyas. In Yemen, jambiyas are as needed for male attire as pants., and until recently their blades were of fighting quality. Elgood wrote that Hungarian blades were highly prized there in part for their ability to emit sounds during dancing; a hint that dancing was performed with real battle swords.
No Khevsur, Georgian or Zeibek had a special dancing sword, and they danced a lot.

But you must have access to information that is not available to the foreigners...... be it as it may.

IN THE 19TH C. Oman apart from a very narrow window of prosperity was very poor..No oil in those days...No schools, clinics, hospitals, roads or anything else ...until about 1970.
Black slaves in irons were still obtainable here in Buraimi in 1960.

People somewhat underestimate the situation and tend to sideline the evidence; for example of the Funoon ... I don't blame you however, since it is very much a touch of Alice...In fact the best way to consider the different Genre is as a series of Pantomimes. Education didn't exist..reading and writing was about next to nothing...so the traditions were passed down in Poetry, Dance, Singing and those performances involving the flexible dancing sword. Funoon essentially means The Traditions.

...I indicate above the different functions in which this accoutrement was involved and although some swords were richly adorned in the case of VIPs items its primary use was as explained and it never saw a battle ..except from the viewpoint as waving it in support of the leader..or in its role in the mock fight

When needed Oman had a classic battle Sword... The Sayf Yamaani... plus spears, daggers and the usual fire arms of the day.

Jim McDougall · 28th December 2016, 07:05 PM

Although it seems that we are digressing from the original post in this thread, a Zanzibar nimcha with very thin brass mounts, the subject of the use of swords in combat vs, in pageantry still remains on point. The examples and instances included by way of analogy are of other forms, but the principle still applies.

The subject of Arabian use and preference of Hungarian blades is well noted, and I have owned and handled Arabian sabers with these blades. While regarded as Hungarian, these blades were typically Solingen or Styrian made (Ostrowski, "The Polish Saber") and the ones I have handled were not particularly flexible, certainly not in the degree required in the Omani dance.
However, I very much agree that actual battle swords were certainly used in dancing or pre combat fervor in very live situations, and probably in a celebratory manner post combat. This of course was probably true in other events using actual battle swords in other nationalities and cultures outside the Omani sphere, in fact I had noted this was likely the origin of the Omani dance. In seems that this performance was altered by producing even more flexible blades in order to enhance the effects desired.

One of the key factors sought in actual combat blades is flexibility, in fact many European blades were tested to see if they could be bent far out of shape and return to original shape . This is essential in blades for combat use as a rigid blade will be subject to breaking in extreme impact and shock.
However, in extremes such as with the Omani dance versions, these blades are flimsy as opposed to flexible, and would be of little use in combat.

What is being confused is the many examples of the conical hilt Omani swords mounted with substantial European and other blades. These were as often explained, worn by individuals of standing and influence in the Omani sphere, particularly merchants and slavers, who were not involved in these performances any more than in any military or combative affairs. These were entirely civil or in effect court type swords despite fully serviceable blades, and very much status oriented, rather than combat ready .

The numbers of these Omani swords produced in more recent times for commercial purposes have further clouded the issue as these have become interpolated with actual earlier examples worn as status symbols in these civil circumstances. It seems these began to circulate around 20 years ago as when I obtained one, they were still rarely seen.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th December 2016, 08:48 PM

Ras al Khaimah began to churn them out about 30 years ago. In the case of Omani Souks they more or less exploded into life after 1970 making them very common from then. To allow the common man access to these swords they were produced in great numbers especially for Zanzibari Omanis (Mangas) some time in the mid 19th C.

In Oman proper these swords were worked by wandering gypsies called Zutoot...but since the Zutoot were absorbed into Omani society in the early 70s; that dwindled . A Factory exists making vast numbers in Salalah..The emphasis is on cheap mass production for the masses even today. The same system exists today as it did when they were invented likely in the first quarter of the 19th C by the Ruler. This also points to a style etched into society where the original form is rigidly followed as it enters the well respected Funun Traditional genre.

TVV · 28th December 2016, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These were as often explained, worn by individuals of standing and influence in the Omani sphere, particularly merchants and slavers, who were not involved ... in any military or combative affairs. These were entirely civil or in effect court type swords despite fully serviceable blades, and very much status oriented, rather than combat ready .

I am not sure about the merchants, but the slavers seem to have been involved in quite a lot of "combative affairs". Obviously, the locals did not become slaves willingly, but on top of the resistance they offered, the Arabs in Central Africa were involved in some serious campaigns: Tippu Tip's son Sefu waged a war with Belgian colonial troops in Congo, and the British led a war in the area around lake Malawi against an Arab slaver called Mlozi. It would appears that swords were more than just part of the dress during those times.

Jim McDougall · 29th December 2016, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I am not sure about the merchants, but the slavers seem to have been involved in quite a lot of "combative affairs". Obviously, the locals did not become slaves willingly, but on top of the resistance they offered, the Arabs in Central Africa were involved in some serious campaigns: Tippu Tip's son Sefu waged a war with Belgian colonial troops in Congo, and the British led a war in the area around lake Malawi against an Arab slaver called Mlozi. It would appears that swords were more than just part of the dress during those times.

Very well noted, and you are right, the merchants would have been in quite non combative situations as they were situated in entrepots and metropolitan areas of commerce. These persons were interested in affluence and status, and wore these embellished conical hilt swords with swagger.

The slavers were indeed the more rugged individuals in expeditions far into the interior through highly contested colonial territories and engaged in an even more contested commerce, slavery. I don't think that the weapons used in these circumstances were any more regulated or patterned in any way, however I would expect that they were chosen for serviceability as well as durability. For example it would seem that machete like blades would fare better in jungle areas than awkward broadsword blades.
In the rugged areas of colonial new Spain, the simple heavy bladed sword called the espada ancha served more as a utility arm used much like a machete, but certainly doubled as a weapon as required.

The Omani swords bladed for dance pageantry of course would never have been taken into the interior, and we cannot be certain that the status laden examples worn by merchants and elite never appeared there. However, such swords would seem a bit out of place in these conditions and with such threats.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th January 2017, 10:52 AM

Searching my photo base I found a close lookalike to the project sword as below. This one came from Muscat Souk with a fairly accurate trace to the souk in Sanaa before it became embroiled in a war. The blade looks European with the added clue of hogs back, eyelash or bitemarks ...

TVV · 9th January 2017, 08:15 PM

Thank you Ibrahim, the sword you posted is indeed similar in the use of brass as material for the guard and the band below the guard. However, the guard is more complex than the one on my sword, and with the three prongs looks Maghrebi, does not it? I understand that as far back as you can trace this sword it has been in South Arabia, and not in North Africa.

Regards,
Teodor

28th December 2016, 08:48 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Ras al Khaimah began to churn them out about 30 years ago. In the case of Omani Souks they more or less exploded into life after 1970 making them very common from then. To allow the common man access to these swords they were produced in great numbers especially for Zanzibari Omanis (Mangas) some time in the mid 19th C. In Oman proper these swords were worked by wandering gypsies called Zutoot...but since the Zutoot were absorbed into Omani society in the early 70s; that dwindled . A Factory exists making vast numbers in Salalah..The emphasis is on cheap mass production for the masses even today. The same system exists today as it did when they were invented likely in the first quarter of the 19th C by the Ruler. This also points to a style etched into society where the original form is rigidly followed as it enters the well respected Funun Traditional genre. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th December 2016 at 09:06 PM.

8th January 2017, 10:52 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Searching my photo base I found a close lookalike to the project sword as below. This one came from Muscat Souk with a fairly accurate trace to the souk in Sanaa before it became embroiled in a war. The blade looks European with the added clue of hogs back, eyelash or bitemarks ... Attached Images

27th December 2016, 09:28 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, as Alice would say, curiosier and curiosier... I hear your points, but I am still puzzled. Perhaps , in the 19 century Oman was an oasis of tranquility, but the neighboring areas were not. In what is now Saudi Arabia clans clashed all the time, and swords were as embedded in the daily life as kaffiyas. In Yemen, jambiyas are as needed for male attire as pants., and until recently their blades were of fighting quality. Elgood wrote that Hungarian blades were highly prized there in part for their ability to emit sounds during dancing; a hint that dancing was performed with real battle swords. No Khevsur, Georgian or Zeibek had a special dancing sword, and they danced a lot. But you must have access to information that is not available to the foreigners...... be it as it may.

28th December 2016, 07:05 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Although it seems that we are digressing from the original post in this thread, a Zanzibar nimcha with very thin brass mounts, the subject of the use of swords in combat vs, in pageantry still remains on point. The examples and instances included by way of analogy are of other forms, but the principle still applies. The subject of Arabian use and preference of Hungarian blades is well noted, and I have owned and handled Arabian sabers with these blades. While regarded as Hungarian, these blades were typically Solingen or Styrian made (Ostrowski, "The Polish Saber") and the ones I have handled were not particularly flexible, certainly not in the degree required in the Omani dance. However, I very much agree that actual battle swords were certainly used in dancing or pre combat fervor in very live situations, and probably in a celebratory manner post combat. This of course was probably true in other events using actual battle swords in other nationalities and cultures outside the Omani sphere, in fact I had noted this was likely the origin of the Omani dance. In seems that this performance was altered by producing even more flexible blades in order to enhance the effects desired. One of the key factors sought in actual combat blades is flexibility, in fact many European blades were tested to see if they could be bent far out of shape and return to original shape . This is essential in blades for combat use as a rigid blade will be subject to breaking in extreme impact and shock. However, in extremes such as with the Omani dance versions, these blades are flimsy as opposed to flexible, and would be of little use in combat. What is being confused is the many examples of the conical hilt Omani swords mounted with substantial European and other blades. These were as often explained, worn by individuals of standing and influence in the Omani sphere, particularly merchants and slavers, who were not involved in these performances any more than in any military or combative affairs. These were entirely civil or in effect court type swords despite fully serviceable blades, and very much status oriented, rather than combat ready . The numbers of these Omani swords produced in more recent times for commercial purposes have further clouded the issue as these have become interpolated with actual earlier examples worn as status symbols in these civil circumstances. It seems these began to circulate around 20 years ago as when I obtained one, they were still rarely seen.

9th January 2017, 08:15 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,725	Thank you Ibrahim, the sword you posted is indeed similar in the use of brass as material for the guard and the band below the guard. However, the guard is more complex than the one on my sword, and with the three prongs looks Maghrebi, does not it? I understand that as far back as you can trace this sword it has been in South Arabia, and not in North Africa. Regards, Teodor