"Armour Piercing Keris" ???

Gustav · 23rd December 2016, 12:52 PM

Tombak or Keris?

Thank you, Kulino, for posting these.

Battara · 23rd December 2016, 01:33 PM

This Bugis looking keris seems to me to have a newer blade.

Gustav · 23rd December 2016, 02:06 PM

The question is, what means "newer" in the context.

If about 100 years of age is new for you, then it certainly isn't new. I would say, quite a lot older than new.

The Gonjo of course is newer then blade, but surely also antique.

David · 23rd December 2016, 05:47 PM

Well, that's a good question Gustav. I would certainly say that it is being currently presented as a keris sepang, though it may well have started life as a tombak. I must say that i find it intriguing and handsome.

Sajen · 23rd December 2016, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

This Bugis looking keris seems to me to have a newer blade.

It look Malay to my eyes, Terengganu!?

Gustav · 23rd December 2016, 09:38 PM

Thank you David. Alan, thank you very much for your remarks!

Detlef, it could very well be the case. On this I am not sure myself, because it is so off-standard. This Sampir form we encounter also in Johor-Riau and Riau Lingga, and perhaps I favorite these possibilities more.

GIO · 23rd December 2016, 06:06 PM

[QUOTE=Gustav]Tombak or Keris?

Tombak IMHO

A. G. Maisey · 23rd December 2016, 06:55 PM

This is a very scarce item, seldom seen, and I have never previously seen a Bugis style one.

My guess is a family pusaka mounted as a keris.

It is a Tomris, Dhapur Ngapes.

Edit: --- In response to a private query I thought I'd better add this:-

"Tomris" is the Ngoko term, Krama is "Dhuwaos", and when worn in the wangkingan fashion it is referred to as a "Wangwaosan".

It should be noted that the alternate spelling of "Tomris" is "Tumris"

David · 23rd December 2016, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...and when worn in the wangkingan fashion it is referred to as a "Wangwaosan".

Alan, would you mind expanding upon what you mean by "worn in the wangkingan fashion". Thanks!

A. G. Maisey · 24th December 2016, 12:43 AM

As worn in formal style, at the back.

David · 24th December 2016, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As worn in formal style, at the back.

Thanks Alan. Now that you say that i do recall the term from recent discussion.

A. G. Maisey · 24th December 2016, 11:18 PM

Many years ago I was given perhaps one of the most valuable lessons I have ever received in relation to Javanese communication.

It goes without saying that it is absolutely essential for a person from outside the society to be able to understand the way in which Javanese people sometimes choose to communicate, if that person wishes to understand the message that is being delivered to him.

Very briefly:- words do not always mean what they may appear to mean, the core message behind the words needs to be read. To read the message behind the words, the words themselves need to be examined, the way in which they are delivered needs to be examined, the time and place needs to be taken account of, and especially in face to face communication the body language must be noted and interpreted.

Then there is the problem of the Javanese language itself:- a word can mean whatever the speaker intends it to mean, the word itself may not even be a part of a generally accepted lexicon --- a bit like Humpty Dumpty.

The lesson I received all those years ago was one of the most valuable I have ever received in relation to my understanding of the way in which Javanese society works, and most especially to keris study.

Gustav gave us an excellent image of a very scarce object, this type of thing is as I have already remarked, very seldom seen. They do exist, but the number of times I have actually held one in my hands could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

What Gustav also us was an opportunity for me to try to give to all those who are following this thread an opportunity to receive the same lesson that I received perhaps 35 or 40 years ago. The similarity in circumstance is virtually the same, the only difference is that I got my lesson face to face, I have attempted to provide the same lesson here in writing.

I suggest that you go back to my post #45 and look very closely at the words I have used.

When you understand what I have done you will be in a much better position to understand information coming from a Javanese source in future.

kai · 25th December 2016, 05:38 PM

Hello Alan,

Ok, I'll bite...

Quote:

It is a Tomris, Dhapur Ngapes.

To me this word looks like a marriage of tombak and keris. Possibly something you made up to please the name chasers? On the other hand, nobody asked for a name for this rare beast AFAIK.

I'm completely lost on the intended dhapur connotation though...

Quote:

"Tomris" is the Ngoko term, Krama is "Dhuwaos", and when worn in the wangkingan fashion it is referred to as a "Wangwaosan".

D(h)uwung + wa(h)os, and Wangkingan + wa(h)osan, I guess?

I haven't been able to come up with an explanation for changing wa(h)os into wa(h)osan though. BTW, are dagger-hilted (pusaka) tombak ever worn in the wangkingan fashion to really need a "formal" word - I believed this was a modern fad for easier storage only?

Quote:

It should be noted that the alternate spelling of "Tomris" is "Tumris"

Pretty much flogging a dead horse here, just to please the standard transliteration, as well as Bahasa Indonesia and Malay folks, I assume?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 25th December 2016, 08:32 PM

Thank you Kai.

Yes, "tomris" is a word that I have coined, it is constructed of parts of the words "keris" and "tombak".

"Ngapes" is an anagram --- of what?

"Dhuwaos" I constructed from "Dhuwung" and "Waos", "Waos" is Krama (high level Javanese) for "tombak".

"Wangwaosan" I constructed from "Wangkingan" (a keris worn at the back) and "Waos" ("Waos" is Krama for "tombak"), the suffix "an" has created the noun.

The "Tomris" / "Tumris" explanation was added in response to a query from a gentleman who is not confident in his ability to write English, so he sometimes contacts me by private email to ask a question.

The reason I put this post up is precisely as I said:- it echoes almost exactly the situation of an early experience that I had in the wonders of Javanese communication. One can lecture and theorise forever about any particular subject but a simple example can be worth three or four 5000 word papers.
The example I have given is no more difficult than what I experienced many years ago, but it does require access to a good Javanese dictionary, or a native speaker of Javanese. When I was hit with my experience I did not have a Javanese dictionary, but I did have access to a native speaker. These days there are a number of Javanese dictionaries available on the net.

I do hope that this little diversion has been of value.

Kai, knives and daggers of all kinds have been worn at the back by all societies, and probably since sharp pointy things were invented. I wander around my yard with a pruning knife tucked into my belt at the back, in Jawa farmers are seldom without an arit, and if that arit is not dangling at the end of an arm, it is tucked into the farmer's shorts at the back. However, in Javanese formal dress a tombak that has been mounted as a dagger does not have any place.
In respect of the mounting of a tombak as a dagger, I don't think we should refer to this as a "fad". Historically it was mounted thus for dual use, but in modern times, say the last 100 years or so, it is something that has been done as a necessity, because of the lower ceiling heights in more modern houses.

drdavid · 25th December 2016, 08:47 PM

Ngapes = Sepang?
drd

kai · 25th December 2016, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Ngapes = Sepang?

Yup, good one, David!

kai · 25th December 2016, 09:18 PM

[QUOTE]I do hope that this little diversion has been of value./QUOTE]
Thanks a lot, Alan!

"Fad" wasn't meant as low level ngoko use

- I agree that later development may more appropriate.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 25th December 2016, 09:32 PM

Yep, "sepang", and that "Ng ---" makes the word look so Javanese.

This is the sort of word play and its attendant confusion that is not at all uncommon in conversation with a Javanese person, and this Javanese idea of conversation gets carried into Bahasa Indonesia when they use that language. The end result is that sometimes a non-native speaker --- and I suspect often a native speaker --- will go away wondering exactly what it is that they have been told, only to realise a day or so later that somebody was either lying or having a joke with them.

Javanese people seem to have the idea that they, personally, own every word that they utter.

23rd December 2016, 12:52 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,294	Tombak or Keris? Thank you, Kulino, for posting these. Attached Images

23rd December 2016, 06:55 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	This is a very scarce item, seldom seen, and I have never previously seen a Bugis style one. My guess is a family pusaka mounted as a keris. It is a Tomris, Dhapur Ngapes. Edit: --- In response to a private query I thought I'd better add this:- "Tomris" is the Ngoko term, Krama is "Dhuwaos", and when worn in the wangkingan fashion it is referred to as a "Wangwaosan". It should be noted that the alternate spelling of "Tomris" is "Tumris" Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 23rd December 2016 at 08:51 PM. Reason: clarification

23rd December 2016, 01:33 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,297	This Bugis looking keris seems to me to have a newer blade.

23rd December 2016, 02:06 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,294	The question is, what means "newer" in the context. If about 100 years of age is new for you, then it certainly isn't new. I would say, quite a lot older than new. The Gonjo of course is newer then blade, but surely also antique.

23rd December 2016, 05:47 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Well, that's a good question Gustav. I would certainly say that it is being currently presented as a keris sepang, though it may well have started life as a tombak. I must say that i find it intriguing and handsome.

23rd December 2016, 09:38 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,294	Thank you David. Alan, thank you very much for your remarks! Detlef, it could very well be the case. On this I am not sure myself, because it is so off-standard. This Sampir form we encounter also in Johor-Riau and Riau Lingga, and perhaps I favorite these possibilities more.

23rd December 2016, 06:06 PM	#7
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	[QUOTE=Gustav]Tombak or Keris? Tombak IMHO

24th December 2016, 12:43 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	As worn in formal style, at the back.

24th December 2016, 11:18 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	Many years ago I was given perhaps one of the most valuable lessons I have ever received in relation to Javanese communication. It goes without saying that it is absolutely essential for a person from outside the society to be able to understand the way in which Javanese people sometimes choose to communicate, if that person wishes to understand the message that is being delivered to him. Very briefly:- words do not always mean what they may appear to mean, the core message behind the words needs to be read. To read the message behind the words, the words themselves need to be examined, the way in which they are delivered needs to be examined, the time and place needs to be taken account of, and especially in face to face communication the body language must be noted and interpreted. Then there is the problem of the Javanese language itself:- a word can mean whatever the speaker intends it to mean, the word itself may not even be a part of a generally accepted lexicon --- a bit like Humpty Dumpty. The lesson I received all those years ago was one of the most valuable I have ever received in relation to my understanding of the way in which Javanese society works, and most especially to keris study. Gustav gave us an excellent image of a very scarce object, this type of thing is as I have already remarked, very seldom seen. They do exist, but the number of times I have actually held one in my hands could be counted on the fingers of one hand. What Gustav also us was an opportunity for me to try to give to all those who are following this thread an opportunity to receive the same lesson that I received perhaps 35 or 40 years ago. The similarity in circumstance is virtually the same, the only difference is that I got my lesson face to face, I have attempted to provide the same lesson here in writing. I suggest that you go back to my post #45 and look very closely at the words I have used. When you understand what I have done you will be in a much better position to understand information coming from a Javanese source in future.

25th December 2016, 08:32 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	Thank you Kai. Yes, "tomris" is a word that I have coined, it is constructed of parts of the words "keris" and "tombak". "Ngapes" is an anagram --- of what? "Dhuwaos" I constructed from "Dhuwung" and "Waos", "Waos" is Krama (high level Javanese) for "tombak". "Wangwaosan" I constructed from "Wangkingan" (a keris worn at the back) and "Waos" ("Waos" is Krama for "tombak"), the suffix "an" has created the noun. The "Tomris" / "Tumris" explanation was added in response to a query from a gentleman who is not confident in his ability to write English, so he sometimes contacts me by private email to ask a question. The reason I put this post up is precisely as I said:- it echoes almost exactly the situation of an early experience that I had in the wonders of Javanese communication. One can lecture and theorise forever about any particular subject but a simple example can be worth three or four 5000 word papers. The example I have given is no more difficult than what I experienced many years ago, but it does require access to a good Javanese dictionary, or a native speaker of Javanese. When I was hit with my experience I did not have a Javanese dictionary, but I did have access to a native speaker. These days there are a number of Javanese dictionaries available on the net. I do hope that this little diversion has been of value. Kai, knives and daggers of all kinds have been worn at the back by all societies, and probably since sharp pointy things were invented. I wander around my yard with a pruning knife tucked into my belt at the back, in Jawa farmers are seldom without an arit, and if that arit is not dangling at the end of an arm, it is tucked into the farmer's shorts at the back. However, in Javanese formal dress a tombak that has been mounted as a dagger does not have any place. In respect of the mounting of a tombak as a dagger, I don't think we should refer to this as a "fad". Historically it was mounted thus for dual use, but in modern times, say the last 100 years or so, it is something that has been done as a necessity, because of the lower ceiling heights in more modern houses.

25th December 2016, 08:47 PM	#15
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Ngapes = Sepang? drd

25th December 2016, 09:18 PM	#17
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	[QUOTE]I do hope that this little diversion has been of value./QUOTE] Thanks a lot, Alan! "Fad" wasn't meant as low level ngoko use - I agree that later development may more appropriate. Regards, Kai

25th December 2016, 09:32 PM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	Yep, "sepang", and that "Ng ---" makes the word look so Javanese. This is the sort of word play and its attendant confusion that is not at all uncommon in conversation with a Javanese person, and this Javanese idea of conversation gets carried into Bahasa Indonesia when they use that language. The end result is that sometimes a non-native speaker --- and I suspect often a native speaker --- will go away wondering exactly what it is that they have been told, only to realise a day or so later that somebody was either lying or having a joke with them. Javanese people seem to have the idea that they, personally, own every word that they utter.