"Armour Piercing Keris" ???

[A. G. Maisey]

As with many good stories, this one has a basis in fact.

During the Kartosuro era, one problem faced by Javanese warriors was the fact that their kerises were unable to pierce Dutch breast plates. The Javanese keris was made as a personal weapon, and if carried into battle, it was a weapon of last resort, but that last resort was no resort at all if faced by a Dutchman wearing a breast plate. At that time, normal Javanese dress was naked from the waist up, so you didn't need a particularly robust keris to be able to stick your dhuwung into your brother-in-law's kidneys if he stole your terkuku.

Enter Brojoguno I.

His claim to fame was that he could make keris that were able to pierce Dutch breast plates. The recognised test for a keris that was claimed to be able to do the breast plate thing became the ability to pierce a copper coin:- copper coin on a wooden bench, pierce that and you were accepted as having proved your point.

Brojoguno was not born in Kartosuro, he came from outside, I don't know where, but very probably Madura or the North Coast. His descendants all took the name of Brojoguno.

[Timo Nieminen]

I would be very impressed by a keris penetrating a Dutch breastplate. Not just a keris, but any one-handed stabbing weapon. Not so easy to drive a point through approximately 2mm of iron sheet.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pretty well established that it did happen Timo, I have no idea at all of what Dutch breast plate is like, but the fact that Brojoguno keris did penetrate them is a part of history.

[ariel]

Don't know about keris, but European estocs were actually designed for stabbing through solid steel cuirasses. Even in the 19th century French cavalry was trained to stab rather than slash, and their opponents wore cuirasses ( not all, of course, but quite a lot). So yes, it was possible. And sticking 2-3 inches of steel inside any part of torso was almost guaranteed to be fatal.

[A. G. Maisey]

Now you mention it Ariel, yes, the cross section of this type of keris --- the Brojoguno style and his copiers --- is something like an estoc.

There is also a tombak that will pierce breast plates, it is the "sajen ampel" form, and it is a distinctly diamond shape cross section.

[mariusgmioc]

Very interesting information. Thank you!

[Kulino]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Now you mention it Ariel, yes, the cross section of this type of keris --- the Brojoguno style and his copiers --- is something like an estoc.

There is also a tombak that will pierce breast plates, it is the "sajen ampel" form, and it is a distinctly diamond shape cross section.

Could this be the tombak you mentioned?

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pretty well established that it did happen Timo, I have no idea at all of what Dutch breast plate is like, but the fact that Brojoguno keris did penetrate them is a part of history.

Originally Posted by ariel

Don't know about keris, but European estocs were actually designed for stabbing through solid steel cuirasses. Even in the 19th century French cavalry was trained to stab rather than slash, and their opponents wore cuirasses ( not all, of course, but quite a lot). So yes, it was possible. And sticking 2-3 inches of steel inside any part of torso was almost guaranteed to be fatal.

Estocs were not designed for stabbing through steel cuirasses. They're designed to stab in the gaps of a plate armour, and to defeat the armour in the gaps (e.g., mail voiders covering the gaps). The problem with breastplates is that they're designed to keep lance points, pike points, arrows, crossbow bolts etc. out, and perhaps bullets.

I suggest an experiment: get some mild steel sheet, 1.5mm thick, and try to stab through it, with whatever one-handed dagger, knife, or sword you wish to try. That mild steel sheet is better quality (but thinner) than the lowest quality iron used to make cheap munition armours, and if the results in Williams, The Knight and the Blast Furnace, section 9, are good, it's about as protective as a cheap and nasty munition breastplate of 2.5mm thickness, or a mediocre breastplate 2mm thick (2-2.5mm thick is typical, for infantry breastplates).

With a close-to-optimal tip for penetration, you can just penetrate (i.e., make a hole all the way through, but only just) that 1.5mm of mild steel with 80J of energy. Make that about 110J if you want to tip to go through far enough to be effective. This isn't easy to achieve, especially if the target is trying to avoid being stabbed. The best possible armour piercing tip doesn't make it easy (or depending on the breastplate, even possible) to pierce thick iron plate.

Given that some armours will be thinner, will have defects, will have thin spots, etc., the best one-handed stabs delivered by humans, hitting square-on, should be able to occasionally go through (not against much-thicker cavalry breastplates, though). But there are some serious problems with trying that and hoping it will work as a fighting strategy. It's much, much easier to go around the breastplate than to go through it. There's plenty that it doesn't cover.

What an "armour-piercing" tip will give you is a tip that will survive hitting a breastplate when you're trying to go around it. It's also a good tip for piercing chainmail (which was used by the VOC), or against armoured-all-over soldiers, piercing the much thinner armour on the limbs.

[A. G. Maisey]

You make a good argument Timo, but the problem is that Brojoguno keris were witnessed and recorded as having pierced Dutch breast plates.

What sort of Dutch breast plates?

I don't know.

How it was done?

I don't know.

Was the author of the babad (court history) lying?

I don't know.

Was it a political ploy to raise Javanese spirit?

I don't know

Perhaps your modern understanding of the mechanical qualities of material do undermine this piece of recorded history. But again, we have a problem, and that problem is Jawa itself.

If something is believed to have happened, it did happen, and all the logic, reason and modern scientific understanding in the world will not alter that.

Modern logical thought has no place at all in Javanese keris belief systems.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You make a good argument Timo, but the problem is that Brojoguno keris were witnessed and recorded as having pierced Dutch breast plates.

Why is that a problem? As I said,

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Given that some armours will be thinner, will have defects, will have thin spots, etc., the best one-handed stabs delivered by humans, hitting square-on, should be able to occasionally go through (not against much-thicker cavalry breastplates, though).

In practice, the average breastplate should be able to resist almost all stabs. But that doesn't mean that all breastplates stop all stabs.

It might be worth seeing what the oldest written sources say, whether they say "breastplate" specifically or just a more general "armour" (with "breastplate" being a later gloss).