Wootz or not?

ariel · 15th December 2016, 12:26 PM

I know it. I simplified the argument to avoid going on a tangent.

How about that: wootz can be obtained only by using a crucible, and that was the methodology routinely used in India.

Any deviation from the optimal process, whether accidental, intentional or a shortcut would result in monosteel as a final product.

Now let's go back to the original question.

Richard G · 15th December 2016, 12:54 PM

Has anyone else noticed how many of the common and cheap horn handled Kurdish daggers have a watered\wootz blade? Anyone know why this should be?
Regards
Richard

ariel · 15th December 2016, 01:22 PM

My guess because wootz was plentiful.
The low efficiency of the process was compensated by the simplicity and low cost of establishing the enterprise in any village with easy access to iron ore.

That's exactly what I was talking about:-)

mariusgmioc · 15th December 2016, 05:07 PM

Definitely wootz was plentiful, as it is demonstrated by the relative abundance of surviving wootz-bladed weapons, from India to Turkey.

Most Kurdish daggers have Persian blades, and come from a period for which wootz was the standard, then they were passed on from generation to generation, while changing hilts and scabbards.

Yet, now despite all technological progress, advanced metalurgy and intensive research, there isn't a single bladesmith (not even Ivan Kirpichev or Zaqro Nonikashvili) capable to consistently produce wootz displaying the same mesmerizing watering like the antique original.

S.Al-Anizi · 15th December 2016, 05:29 PM

Not wanting to sidetrack the conversation,

But can anyone explain to me (or maybe through a link) what how bloomery steel was produced (tamahagane?)

And when did Mediterranean nations forfeit this method for newer methods and what are they?

I know how wootz is produced btw through a couple of youtube clips...

Cheers!

ariel · 16th December 2016, 05:00 AM

Yes, bloomery steel is essentially tamahagane. In the original variant, furnaces were built with an air-supplying orifice situated on the windward side.
That was further improved by hearth refining, shaft furnaces with bellows and then by puddling furnaces at the end of 18 century.
After that, the tempo of progress accelerated: Bessemer and Siemens -Martin processes allowed rapid production of large quantities of steel; the end of 19 century.

15th December 2016, 12:26 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I know it. I simplified the argument to avoid going on a tangent. How about that: wootz can be obtained only by using a crucible, and that was the methodology routinely used in India. Any deviation from the optimal process, whether accidental, intentional or a shortcut would result in monosteel as a final product. Now let's go back to the original question. Last edited by ariel; 15th December 2016 at 01:11 PM.

15th December 2016, 12:54 PM	#2
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	Has anyone else noticed how many of the common and cheap horn handled Kurdish daggers have a watered\wootz blade? Anyone know why this should be? Regards Richard

15th December 2016, 01:22 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My guess because wootz was plentiful. The low efficiency of the process was compensated by the simplicity and low cost of establishing the enterprise in any village with easy access to iron ore. That's exactly what I was talking about:-)

15th December 2016, 05:07 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Definitely wootz was plentiful, as it is demonstrated by the relative abundance of surviving wootz-bladed weapons, from India to Turkey. Most Kurdish daggers have Persian blades, and come from a period for which wootz was the standard, then they were passed on from generation to generation, while changing hilts and scabbards. Yet, now despite all technological progress, advanced metalurgy and intensive research, there isn't a single bladesmith (not even Ivan Kirpichev or Zaqro Nonikashvili) capable to consistently produce wootz displaying the same mesmerizing watering like the antique original.

15th December 2016, 05:29 PM	#5
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Not wanting to sidetrack the conversation, But can anyone explain to me (or maybe through a link) what how bloomery steel was produced (tamahagane?) And when did Mediterranean nations forfeit this method for newer methods and what are they? I know how wootz is produced btw through a couple of youtube clips... Cheers!

16th December 2016, 05:00 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, bloomery steel is essentially tamahagane. In the original variant, furnaces were built with an air-supplying orifice situated on the windward side. That was further improved by hearth refining, shaft furnaces with bellows and then by puddling furnaces at the end of 18 century. After that, the tempo of progress accelerated: Bessemer and Siemens -Martin processes allowed rapid production of large quantities of steel; the end of 19 century.